Transport Committee on May 7th, 2019

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Aubin, for six minutes.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My thanks to all our guests for joining us this morning.

I have many more questions than time. May I ask you to give brief answers, if possible.

My questions come with two major focuses: maintaining our safety record, which all Canadians agree with, and protecting our biodiversity, all the more important given the quite catastrophic report published today, which you have probably read.

Modernization is a fine word. This is reengineering time for the government. It always means doing more, and doing it quicker and cheaper, while still staying safe and protecting biodiversity.

Briefly, Mr. Arseneault and Mr. Haakonson, do you think it is possible to do more, and to do it quicker and cheaper, while still maintaining our safety record and protecting our biodiversity? It is not just the environment.

[Alain Arseneault]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Aubin.

There is no short answer, but I will at least try to give you a quick one.

As we can see with smartphones and artificial intelligence systems in means of transportation, and so on, technologies are likely to evolve rapidly, not just in navigation and shipping, but in society as a whole.

Must we conclude from this that the evolution of technology automatically makes life more effective, quicker, and more efficient? I have yet to be convinced.

In my opinion, it is the role of Canadian pilots to make sure that the development will continue as the environment is being protected.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Haakonson, did you want to add something?

[Roy Haakonson]

Yes. For the efficient and expeditious movement of vessels, pilots were already developing processes and technology to give us better decision-making tools. I know we work closely with the port in our own district in First Narrows where we're now putting ultra large cruise vessels in the port, which is closing the Narrows to further shipping. Pilots will work more closely and probably with the port in vessel planning, strategies, and management.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

Let me come back to you, Mr. Arseneault.

In your opening remarks, you said that you have 14 apprentice pilots. I assume that their dream is to have a career in your organization.

Are any of those 14 apprentice pilots independent captains who are taking the training in order to become certified?

[Alain Arseneault]

No. Our apprentice pilots are planning to be licenced in the future. When they are licenced, they will be my colleagues, pilots who are members of the Corporation des pilotes du Saint-Laurent central.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay.

In our study, which is all too short, we have been told a lot about the Great Lakes model. You have confirmed that, on the St. Lawrence, for example, vessels have become about 40% bigger. I am no expert, but my geography tells me that we must be at a maximum on the Great Lakes. You cannot have vessels that are too big to fit in the locks. So growth has to be limited.

Are we right to take the Great Lakes certification model and extend it to all Canada's navigable waterways?

[Alain Arseneault]

You analysis of the size of vessels that can sail on the Great Lakes is excellent. There may be more traffic there, of course, but the vessels are of equivalent size.

The question you ask is difficult to answer in a few seconds.

In actual fact, the Great Lakes certification system is the result of an anomaly: on the Great Lakes, Canadian officers on Canadian vessels were exempted from pilotage because of a previous system.

In 2010, that system was deemed to be illegal. It did not comply with the Pilotage Act. It was transformed into a certification system in which those who were exempt took advantage of a grandfather clause and were given pilot certificates. Since the new Great Lakes system has been in effect, only about 10 to 15 Canadian officers have been certified as pilots.

So I have some reservations about exporting the Great Lakes model all over Canada and making it the common denominator of the certification system.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Zatylny, that is probably what you were referring to when you said in your presentation that vessels that had been certified did not have the required skills.

Did I hear you correctly? If so, can you give us an example of what you were referring to?

[Wendy Zatylny]

The waivers vest with an individual, not with a boat. The case I was referring to was a situation where there was an individual who had received the waiver and was on the vessel, but was not on watch at the time. The vessel was continuing to operate within port waters and was deemed to have the waiver. It was operating as if it had the waiver, although the person who actually had it was not in charge— not on watch. An incident occurred. This is just one example that was brought to our attention by one of our harbour masters, but it speaks to a concern overall.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Arseneault, I am coming back to you to talk about technology.

Will the effect of the new technologies be to replace pilots or to provide assistance to pilots in making quicker decisions?

[Alain Arseneault]

The answer to the second part of your question is “yes”.

As a Canadian, I hope that the effect is not to replace pilots.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Hardie.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, everybody, for being here. Some are getting to be old friends, having darkened our doors many times.

Do you charge more for bigger vessels? Is there a sliding scale depending on the size or tonnage of the vessel?

[Roy Haakonson]

Yes, there is.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

When we started to hear of the pilotage review, one word that kept coming up from the people who were paying the bills was “competition”. The structure we have right now is essentially a monopoly inside of a monopoly.

The issue of competition is code for, “We want some kind of cost control.” I guess what would be comforting to people who are paying the bills is that competition isn't necessarily the only way toward cost control. Then it falls to the pilots. I don't know what you guys earn, but I understand it's pretty handsome, which is the reason many masters on the Great Lakes would prefer to be pilots.

What are you doing to apply some economies or cost controls in the absence of competition for your work?

[Roy Haakonson]

That's a good question, Mr. Hardie.

Back in 1998-99, in negotiations with Transport Canada, we gave away our right to withdraw services. We are now under a final offer settlement process where tariff increases can be objected at any stage. We negotiate transparently with industry and the authorities.

Where the income that you might be inquiring about is....You touched on it with size of vessels. With increased size comes increased risk. The duration of time that a pilot would stay on a vessel plays a part in compensation and, obviously, volume.

What we're seeing on the west coast is economy of scale. We're seeing larger vessels moving more cargo. The volume stays the same, but the size has increased exponentially. With that comes additional ongoing training, additional mitigation, more risk assessments, more time that the pilots are constantly looking to mitigate the risks to accommodate industry's demands.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Can you point to technology as one way to improve efficiency, which, again, is code for, say, money?

[Roy Haakonson]

True. Technology has allowed pilots to do more of what we're good at, and that's situational awareness, i.e., looking out the window.

Technology has improved efficiency. Particularly I think in the Bernier report, his biggest concern was that you don't have vessels loitering outside of a harbour waiting to come in. Technology has played a huge part in the efficient flow of traffic, especially into Prince Rupert and Vancouver.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I'll have to intercept you there because the time is short.

One of the more interesting changes proposed in this bill would allow Canadian crews that have similar knowledge and experience as pilots to navigate their own ships in compulsory pilotage zones.

This to me sounds like a kind of custom-made approach for the Great Lakes. Can you see any scenario where the shipmaster and the crew coming into the port of Vancouver would meet the qualification to not have a pilot on board?

[Roy Haakonson]

Again, we expect this process or the discussions over the next couple of years will be lengthy and in-depth.

In British Columbia, we deal with foreign shipping almost exclusively. The challenge would be for the foreign chief officer or foreign master to gain the required sea time or required local knowledge. Hence, the biggest issue, I think, with the certificate waiver system for industry is that a pilot must demonstrate superior local knowledge. lt takes years to be fluent in it, but if we decide that the same local knowledge and expertise has to be completed now by a company master, where the industry stumbles is showing an equivalency or similar knowledge for that master compared to pilotage.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Okay. The issue of certification and the validity of the period for a certified pilot was obviously addressed in this bill. Are you satisfied with the mechanisms in place?

I'll maybe go to you, Mr. McGarry. Are you satisfied that when one of your member ships comes into a port, the pilot getting on may have certification and that this certification is up to date and has been renewed or reviewed appropriately?

[Michael McGarry]

Our members are satisfied with their certification. They have a lot of faith in the pilots and their expertise in the job they do. We do feel, however, that standardization of licensing and certification through Transport Canada would be helpful so that you won't have any differences depending on the region.