Transport Committee on June 4th, 2019

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Badawey, you have six minutes.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I will ask Mr. Hamilton, as he's sitting there very patiently, to answer some questions. It will also give him an opportunity to finish off his opening statement, hopefully as a segue into that discussion.

Mr. Hamilton, we had the opportunity to visit the central part of Canada as well as the west, and we heard from the east. We discussed the integration of distribution logistics, and had a greater discussion on the investments to support; I would underline the 2019 trade corridor strategies. With that, I want to open up the discussion with you with respect to the area of Niagara and of course Canada's canal corridor, being the Welland Canal. What investments are imminent to strengthen this trade corridor and bring it up to date as a multimodal hub?

[Ian Hamilton]

[Inaudible—Editor] operates extremely well in terms of its mandate of moving ships from Lake Erie into Lake Ontario and vice versa. The challenge is that the vessels don't really have much opportunity to stop in the Niagara region, and there aren't the right terminal facilities and rail and road connectivities to attract the businesses to utilize those services. The vessels are coming in from Ontario to Lake Erie and from Lake Erie to Ontario, but the opportunity to attract businesses into the Niagara region and service the businesses that exist there today....

They aren't fulfilling their potential. Quite simply, there hasn't been the investment in the dock walls. There hasn't been the investment in the rail connectivity. The road network needs to be strengthened to service that area, all opportunities for...and completely aligned with the national trade corridors fund.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Mr. Hamilton, are there right now opportunities, or “plans”, to use that word, attached to the strategies that both Hamilton and Niagara are currently embarking on? Are there currently discussions with respect to what specific investments can in fact be made, whether it be in road, rail, water or air?

[Ian Hamilton]

At this stage, there's probably one at the forefront. I think the first step in creating a trade corridor, a road trade corridor, between the GTA and the Niagara region is a great project, and I think that's being initiated by the Niagara region.

In terms of the development of dock walls and areas like that, currently they are controlled by the St. Lawrence Seaway Management Corporation. I don't believe there have been many applications for those, for investments in that area, and I believe that's a huge opportunity to open up.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Further to the partnership between Niagara and Hamilton and, to some extent, even Oshawa as being somewhat of an economic cluster of ports within the province of Ontario, can you further comment on how the trade corridors fund will actually add once again to the overall strategies that you and your partners are creating?

[Ian Hamilton]

Unfortunately—and you've been around, so you realize this—one of the biggest problems we have right now in the GTA is congestion. The waterways around the GTHA and into Niagara are underutilized. We firmly believe that by developing those transportation infrastructures and interfaces, we can better tap into that marine potential.

We believe that by tying together all of the assets and creating a regional port model, we're in a stronger position to control the bookends and strategically look at new products and services to better move our goods around cost-effectively.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

When you look from Oshawa through the GTA coming in from Montreal, as well as through Hamilton and Niagara, do you find that a lot of the Canadian-born product is making its way not only out from the ports of Canada but also travelling the border and being shipped out of ports in the States, then off to the EU countries and other countries throughout the globe?

[Ian Hamilton]

Yes, and the kind of mini land bridge of that is that probably that cargo spends too much time on ground transportation before it actually is able to access marine terminals. As well, as you mentioned, going off the east coast to the United States while even going to the east coast of Canada means that it's travelled through the whole southern Ontario region to these ports by ground transportation, adding to the congestion issue, and in a lot of cases that's by truck.

By improving the infrastructure throughout the whole southern Ontario region, I think we're going to be able to convert that from ground transportation to marine transportation, thereby improving the environmental footprint and reducing the costs.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Aubin.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My thanks to each of our guests for joining us.

I will not be asking a lot of questions about the value of the projects you are presenting, because they speak for themselves. But I have a lot of questions about the way in which you perceive the program and the way in which it assists you.

I will start with Mr. Hamilton.

When I read the description of the project for which you received funding, I find that it is strangely similar to projects that are going on in Trois-Rivières, for example.

Since this study began, one of the comments that always comes up is that it is difficult to make each of the economic corridors fluid. The projects that have been presented are business projects. In the case of the Port of Hamilton, for example, you are talking about finding ways to increase its effectiveness, its capacity and its performance. I don't see any coordination between the various participants in an economic corridor that will achieve that fluidity. They all seem to be working separately, because they each have to present one project of their own.

Would it not be preferable for organizations or groups to present projects designed to achieve that fluidity, meaning the capacity of freight to move quickly and effectively from one end of the chain to the other?

[Ian Hamilton]

Thanks. I think you bring up a good question, because we certainly see that there are silos for the different modes of transportation. Speaking for the port community, I think that as we evolve as ports, we realize that we have to be multimodal hubs. For example, on the Hamilton project, we worked very closely with the rail. One of the key components in that project was to improve accessibility by rail to the port and that interface with marine.

You do bring up a valuable point, and I think there are a number of different groups now that are trying to tie together the transportation modes. However, at this stage, you're right that there's been a lot of silo thinking, and possibly the NTCF could change its structure or someone could actually apply for the fund to create something that allows us to tie together. Today it's very specific in that the entity that applies has to provide the matching funds as opposed to it representing a conglomeration of different funds.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Anablak, from what I understood earlier, you said that you had to deal with the rejection of your first application, having presented a project in its entirety. The funds did not allow you to move forward. It was then suggested that you present your project again, but in stages.

I have a problem with the fund. The government announced an amount of $2 billion, which is a substantial figure that sounds very grand. However, the amount is spread over a period of 11 years, which means that people face exactly the same situation as you.

Would it not be preferable for the government to maintain its decision to invest $2 billion, but to do it over two years, rather than asking you to come back each year, with a little bit of a project each time? The overall amount would remain the same.

[Stanley Anablak]

Thank you, sir.

Yes, it would be our preference to apply for the full amount instead of coming back every year to get more funding.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you. Your answer was short, but clear.

I have another question. I have studied your project. You talked about a deep-water port in Coronation Gulf, in the Northwest Passage. You also talked about an ice road that would link the port to communities further south.

A few weeks ago, we found out that northern Canada is warming up twice as fast as the south. That being the case, is that ice road really a viable infrastructure in the medium and long term? For how many months per year could the ice road be used?

[Scott Northey]

We are planning to build an all-weather road, but it's going to hook up to a winter road. The winter road is in the NWT and they're looking to convert their winter road to an all-weather road for exactly the reasons you've raised. Their winter-road season is getting shorter every year, so they recognize there's not much value in having to replace it every year for a six-week season—you're right.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you for that additional clarification.

I would have preferred if the committee had visited the north. The reality you live in is exceptional, and people who spend their lives in the south have a poor grasp of it.

Apart from the increase of $400 million, does the financial envelope specifically for the north mean that you will be able to compete with those in the south?

[Scott Northey]

The short answer is yes. Generally, by being eligible for a separate pool, it's very helpful to us to ensure that we at least have access to something.

In most other programs—we did apply under the building Canada fund, for example—we were lumped in with projects in Toronto, London and Waterloo, and it was very difficult to get our message out in the context of all the congestion-relief projects that were out there. The fact that there's a specific territorial allocation where everyone's in exactly the same boat.... We're competing for limited funds, but at least we're in a position to compete with each other as opposed to having to compete with the mega-projects that are coming out of the south. That was a good question. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

I'm sorry, Mr. Aubin. Your time is up.

It's on to Mr. Iacono.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Stanley, in your opening remarks you alluded to remote communities not being able to compete or having difficulties with respect to the urban communities. Are you aware of the northern call project?

[Stanley Anablak]

No.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

The goal of the northern call project is to fund projects that would help to improve safety, foster economy and social development, and build on existing investments in the territories. The deadline was March 29, 2019. Are you aware of this?

[Stanley Anablak]

That's the NTCF, I believe.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Yes. Did you apply to that?