Evidence of meeting #37 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Good morning to all of the committee members, both the Liberals and the New Democrats and Conservatives. I am very pleased to be here this morning.
Madam Chair, I am on a sort of interparliamentary diplomatic mission. That is, I am here on behalf of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates to try to understand what has happened and why this bill is being examined by this committee rather than ours.
I am also here as the critic for Public Services and Procurement Canada and to add my two cents about this bill, which was initially analyzed by my colleague, Mr. Blaney.
Thank you for being here this morning, Mr. Schwartz.
In the seventh paragraph of your presentation, it clearly states that you do not necessarily support the bill, but you are supportive of the commendable objectives. Sometimes we can support the principles that are part of something without necessarily supporting the entire thing.
Should we understand that this is your department's position?
9:20 a.m.
Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Public Services and Procurement Canada
I would say that I support both.
9:20 a.m.
Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Public Services and Procurement Canada
Yes, absolutely.
If our presentation gave you the impression that Public Services and Procurement Canada does not support this bill, I apologize.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Fine.
You say that 72 per cent of bidders are small and medium-sized enterprises.
Our SMEs are already having trouble getting to their year end without laying people off. That has been the case for the last year, especially.
Based on your experience and your role in the department, would you tell me whether, in your opinion, our SMEs have broad enough shoulders to take on additional work when they submit proposals?
9:25 a.m.
Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Public Services and Procurement Canada
Are you talking about the need to provide information during the bidding period and to do an assessment afterward?
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Yes. Do you think that would be an additional burden?
9:25 a.m.
Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Public Services and Procurement Canada
I do not think so.
As I said in my presentation, we are not asking bidders to provide information about community benefits in the invitation to tender. We will do the evaluation of the various bidders, and the one we award the contract to is the one that will have to provide the information about those benefits; it is the one that will do an assessment once the work is completed.
For small and medium-sized enterprises, as I said earlier, we will establish criteria, because that requirement does not necessarily affect all projects. The bill enables the Minister to apply that measure in Bill C-227. In the case of a $150 plumbing contract or a $1,000 building or repair contract, I do not think it would be necessary to ask those enterprises to say whether their work provided community benefits.
We will establish criteria for determining what type of project an enterprise will have to comply with that for, and starting at what amount. I think that will enable us to reduce the risk of imposing an administrative burden on small and medium-sized businesses.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you, sir.
I would like to benefit from your expertise some more. I would like us to review the four subsections of proposed section 20.1 in the bill.
With subsections 20.1(1) and (2), I think there will be some interference in the contracting processes carried out by third parties.
For example, in the fourth line of proposed subsection 20.1(1), we see: "... and includes local job creation and training opportunities ... ." It seems obvious to me that unions already play this role. In Quebec, it is the unions that are involved in making sure that the local work force is going to be employed. In many cases, it is also the unions that handle training for that work force. That is also why we are very fond of unions.
Next, it refers to "improvement of public space." In my view, it is municipalities that look after this aspect.
At the end of that sentence, it refers to "any other specific benefit identified by the community." Good heavens! Applying that will be horrific. Ultimately, there will be consultations for all projects awarded by the Canadian government. It amounts to the government telling the municipalities that, boom, it intended to erect a new building in a particular neighbourhood, and required the municipalities to hold a public consultation so the community could specify what benefits the project should provide.
Is my analysis relevant?
9:25 a.m.
Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Public Services and Procurement Canada
It is always relevant, sir. It is a matter of interpretation.
9:25 a.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
December 1st, 2016 / 9:25 a.m.
Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Public Services and Procurement Canada
I would like to clarify that Bill C-227 does not require that enterprises hold consultations.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
9:25 a.m.
Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Public Services and Procurement Canada
According to the bill, the Minister "may" ask bidders to provide information on community benefits. The enterprise to which a contract has been awarded will submit an assessment specifying whether its work provided community benefits. Proposed subsection (4) states that it is the Minister who will assemble all that information and table a report in Parliament.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
I am going to try to be clearer.
Do you not think there is some interference? In fact, on the question of job creation and training opportunities, it is the unions that do that. The contractor will tell the Minister that it can certainly produce a report, but ultimately, it is the unions that will handle those aspects.
Does the bill not mean that the game is being played on two, or even three, playing fields at once?
9:25 a.m.
Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Public Services and Procurement Canada
From the point of view of Public Services and Procurement Canada, I do not think the work is being duplicated. At present, we do not have access to this information. If you asked me what the benefits were of the $5.4 or $5.5 billion in contracts for the construction and maintenance of buildings, in terms of the number of jobs created, the number of apprentices hired, or improvement of public space, I would not have the answer, because those enterprises have no obligation to provide that information. With this bill, they will have to provide that information, and I think that will be useful to all members of the House of Commons.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
9:30 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
Mr. Clarke, as you are a new member, I've let you go a minute and a half over.
9:30 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
I think it's important that everybody get whatever pertinent information they want. If you want to try to get another question in that's really important to you, please go ahead, as long as it's short and has a fast response.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Avenue D'Estimauville is in my riding.
On that avenue, there are two new government buildings. That is a project that represents 1,000 jobs. It seems clear to everyone that the benefits are to the community: restaurants open, the workers come form the region, and so on. Some things happen naturally in a society, and the government does not necessarily need to direct them. That is the beauty of the human race.