Transport Committee on Feb. 16th, 2017

[Sehl Mellouli]

There are two things to consider about citizens' commitment to a smart city.

In terms of the first aspect, let me use the structure of Quebec City as an example. In that city, there are many neighbourhood councils that are listening to citizens. I think it's a space that would make it possible to engage citizens in a smart city strategy. If we want citizens to adopt it, the neighbourhoods must adopt it as well.

The second aspect has to do with the disparities between neighbourhoods within the same city. There are neighbourhoods that are highly connected and others that are not. The widening of the digital gap would be a major problem in the adoption of the smart city concept.

In my view, and based on my experience in Quebec City with some research projects, citizens are truly at the heart of the concerns with smart cities. For them to be at the heart of the concerns, the civil society that supports them must be at the heart of the process. The neighbourhood councils are one of the main components of civil society. They can play an important and major role in circulating information and engaging citizens. Bringing public administration and neighbourhood councils together, and defining frameworks that govern the relationships between the neighbourhood councils and the cities, would help citizens become committed to adopting the concept of smart city. In addition to adopting the smart city concept, I think it is also important—

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'm sorry, but I have to interrupt. Possibly you can get some of those comments in with another member's questions.

We'll go to Monsieur Aubin.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses appearing before us this morning and bringing us a fresh perspective on what we have heard before.

My first questions are for Mr. Mellouli.

Is the study to which you have contributed available? Could the committee consult it?

[Sehl Mellouli]

Yes. The study is available. It was published in a scientific journal. I can share it with you. It is a study that has been referenced more than 700 times in the scientific literature.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

You talked about the digital divide that is everywhere. You talked about between 20% and 30% of the population. I keep asking myself a question. My mother, who is now deceased, was connected. She was probably among the 70% to 80% of the population who are connected. However, her browsing capability was limited to a few emails and Facebook.

In terms of the digital divide, are there data on the browsing capability of the 70% to 80% of people who are connected?

[Sehl Mellouli]

I cannot give you figures on the browsing capability. However, I know there was an experiment on that somewhere in the world. I forgot the name of the city, but I can tell you about the experiment. The idea was to get seniors to surf the Internet through social support. So one, two or three people from a certain community were trained first. They then became catalysts for bringing others of the same age to the Internet.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay.

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but six minutes go by so quickly.

If we want 80% of the connected population to be efficient on the Internet, should we wait for one or two generations until we can say that not only is there no digital divide, but also that all connected people are able to use the Internet?

[Sehl Mellouli]

Today we are seeing the digital divide. I think that within one or two generations, we will be able to say that there isn't one anymore because young people are already using the tools. However, I think that support on the ground is needed for the 20% of the population who don't use the technology.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

In the study you mentioned, you said that there were eight key concepts. Two of them seemed particularly important to me and perhaps they go together. They are politics, and people and communities.

Can we think beyond the usual infrastructure of smart cars, parking apps and public transit, that is, things we are currently seeing? Can we think of a new way of doing politics with a connected government, regardless of whether it is at the municipal, provincial or federal level? Could we think of a revolution in political institutions that would involve a better technological infrastructure?

[Sehl Mellouli]

I fully agree with that point. There should be technological communication channels that would allow political institutions to communicate with people and also allow citizens to express themselves in a context where their comments would be taken into consideration by the political community.

If a break is maintained between the policy area and the people, and citizens do not have feedback on what they have said or done, they will lose interest. That is what we are seeing today in many projects.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

Since I still have a minute left, I also have a question for Mr. Quigley.

As part of your opening remarks, you said that, unlike other countries, Canada seemed to have no coordination plan. I think you mentioned New Zealand in relation to that.

What does this plan we should be implementing look like? I imagine it should be done fairly quickly. What are we talking about, in terms of years, in the case of other countries?

[Kevin Quigley]

The New Zealand plan is a 30-year plan. I think it's a sensible time horizon to have a sort of sense of it. We can focus a lot on the infrastructure, but the fact of the matter is that when we talk about infrastructure we're really talking about the future. What does the future look like? What infrastructure do we have to start building today in anticipation of that future in such a way that we can nudge the future in the direction in which we want to prosper, taking security, environment, trade routes, and all these sorts of things into account?

I think that taking a broad view.... New Zealand's is 30 years, but it's a different form of government there in the sense that it's a smaller country and it's probably easier to do a 30-year time horizon there than it would be for Canada with its federal-provincial dynamics. Nevertheless, a longer term would I think be very helpful.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You still have 45 seconds.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I'll try another one.

Ms. Heron, has this new connection technology led to this experience of political governance at the municipal level in any of the municipalities in your alliance—in St. Albert, for instance?

[Cathy Heron]

What other municipalities are using the technologies? Is that your question?

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

No. I want to know which ones are using this technology to change the relationships between the municipal government and citizens.

[Cathy Heron]

I'm not exactly aware of specifically how they're engaging with the residents, but I do see the opportunity for the technologies to allow better engagement.

For example, last night, the mayor of Edmonton held a Facebook Live conversation about their LRT expansion. It's a great way for you to sit at home with your feet up on the couch and talk to the mayor of Edmonton. He's very good at getting his residents to feel that they are heard. He does listen to them, and he does this quite frequently. He's using technology to achieve that ultimate goal.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Iacono.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Please note that I'll share my time with my colleague, Mr. Hardie.

I want to thank the witnesses for sharing with us their knowledge on smart cities.

My question is for Mr. Mellouli.

How can we ensure that the technologies and concepts used from one city to another are in harmony?

For example, if I have a self-driving vehicle, how can I ensure that, wherever I travel, the technologies for communicating information to my vehicle are in place and able to communicate with the systems in my car?

[Sehl Mellouli]

To do this, Canada should develop an infrastructure that we call the Internet of Things. If I want a self-driving vehicle to travel on Canadian roads, with some data gathered and other data provided, we need to have the necessary infrastructure to make this connection possible. The Internet of Things is one of the major components of this infrastructure. Sensors must be installed everywhere to communicate and provide the necessary data for the car to travel. Without this infrastructure, the self-driving car won't be able to travel from one end of Canada to the other.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

I will ask one last question before turning the floor over to my colleague.

The quick evolution of technology is a challenge when it comes to developing smart cities.

For example, if a city decides to invest in a certain technology today, how can it ensure that it won't be outdated or non-functional in 5, 10 or 20 years?

[Sehl Mellouli]

There are two things to consider with this. There is the technological evolution, as well as the evolution of the standards that support these technologies. Today, we are trying as much as possible to standardize the technologies we're using. As you mentioned, if technology becomes obsolete in the next 5 or 10 years and can't be updated, this will become a major challenge.

So we should combine technology because we have to keep up, but also ensure that the technologies we're using are not 100% proprietary, but that they are based on international standards that allow us to evolve over time.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Iacono.

This is a fascinating discussion.

To my friend Mr. Rayes, if you're interested in a smaller community that has done well, check out Kelowna. They offer the quality of life of a small community, but they've invested heavily in being a smart city and providing that backbone, that structure, that has invited a very healthy cluster of businesses.

This is an open question, but I'll start with you, Mr. Quigley. I think that at the heart of where we're at now is that we're making significant investments in infrastructure. There are a lot of different ways of looking at this. There's the sustainability of our investments in terms of how we actually manage the rollout so that we don't overburden any sector with a huge influx of money and then all of a sudden just leave it there.

More importantly, I guess, what are the fundamentals that we need to have in place, both in terms of basic infrastructure in a community and in terms of the understanding or planning in a community, that make it a good candidate for an infrastructure investment that's going to deliver value for money?