Transport Committee on Feb. 21st, 2017

[Jean-Denis Fréchette]

It is a table, a pie chart that will change with time. Indeed, the proportions will change regularly over the next months. You also have to note that the data in this table go back to January for Infrastructure Canada and to October for the other departments. Obviously, Quebec's part of the pie chart could become bigger.

In addition, although the amounts have been approved, certain provinces tend to ask the federal government for money later in the year, to improve their tax position. That is certainly the case for Quebec. It is possible that the size of Quebec's piece of the pie chart reflects that situation.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

It seems that my time is up.

[The Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)), Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Monsieur Aubin.

Mr. Fraser.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you very much for being here today.

I'd like to begin, like Mr. Hardie, by expressing my profound respect for the PBO. Having worked with an access to information organization at one point in time, I think the work you do is a key pillar to an effective democracy.

There is a narrative that comes, rightly or wrongly, out of your report. When I speak to people in my community they might fear that although the federal government is making investments in infrastructure, the job returns may not be there.

Personally, I think in my community there is a different experience from the potential narrative that the report creates. So just for the sake of clarity for the public, the report deals expressly with phase-one infrastructure, not with other projects like fisheries and oceans and small craft harbours, or post-secondary education infrastructure. Is that correct?

[Jean-Denis Fréchette]

That's correct.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Perfect.

Of the phase one projects that we are dealing with, which may not yet be under construction—some of them may very well be in the engineering or design phase right now—could you offer any insight or breakdown between what's under construction and what's being worked on in the design phase?

[Peter Weltman]

I'll back up a little bit.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Certainly.

[Peter Weltman]

In regard to your first point, some of the monies that have been allocated in this infrastructure program will go to projects such as small craft harbour repair and those sorts of things, through Fisheries and Oceans. You'll see in the report that they have a chunk of money. Some of those kinds of projects are there.

We will be in better shape to understand the progress of the projects with the next report that comes out. We're asking specifically about project progress. Right now what we have in the database is projects, the identified start times, and the identified end times, and we're asking for updates against those particular milestones.

We'll see what we get back. Then we'll be in a better shape to start to assess.

For understanding the phases of the projects, we may be able to get at that with the Infrastructure Canada data. I would have to work with them to see whether they're collecting that sort of thing. It's going to be a manual process. I'll have to ask each department, to see whether they collect that sort of information.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

On the issue of milestones, which I think Mr. Hardie started getting at, some kinds of projects, such as public transit—buying a bus or repairing an existing one, for example—don't necessarily have project timelines like building new municipal water pipes does. How does the purchase of a vehicle with infrastructure money factor into the report?

[Peter Weltman]

Well, in a previous piece of work we did, back in 2009, we asked for project progress. We're asking for that again, and it will really be up to the project manager or the project proponent to determine what phase the project is at relative to.... Is the buying of the bus 100% of the project, or is it 10%?

We're very much dependent upon the data that's provided to us from the project proponents. That's really as far as we can go on that.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

On that issue—and I think this is where Mr. Hardie left off, explicitly—is it possible that some of the projects are not showing up as being well under way in the report as a result of an accounting practice, essentially, whereby the federal money could be, I think he said, the last out the door because of a reimbursement upon completion provision, or something to that effect?

[Peter Weltman]

The report that we produced a couple of weeks ago was fairly explicit in stating that we were measuring “projects identified”, as opposed to “money spent”, for exactly that reason. When a project is identified and a contract or terms and conditions are agreed to and there's a transfer agreement in place with the federal government, work can start. It's effectively like a letter of credit. It doesn't mean that nothing happens until the money comes back.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

On that note, then, I think Infrastructure Canada's website indicates that there are 700 or more projects with an identified construction start date that has passed as of today. There's really no information, you're telling me right now, to say whether that is true or not true. You're simply basing it on what the allocation is, not on what's actually happening on the ground today.

Is that fair?

[Peter Weltman]

That is so right now. Then hopefully, as I said before, as we produce revised reports, we'll be able to get some indication—again, we are data dependent—on what is happening on the ground.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Is it all going to come back to the project proponents' providing this information, or is it from Infrastructure Canada?

[Peter Weltman]

For the other 30 departments, it will be the departments themselves. For Infrastructure Canada, it will be whatever they can get out of their project proponents.

We won't go directly to the proponents yet. We did that last time, but we're not planning yet to do that.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thanks very much. I think that's helpful. I'll look forward to the next report.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Iacono.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Merci .

Thank you for being here today.

Of all the challenges and problems exposed during the previous government's infrastructure spending and programming, is there any one lesson that is most important for us to keep in mind as we go forward?

[Mostafa Askari]

That's a tough question.

As Jean-Denis mentioned, we normally do not make recommendations on policy issues, but one thing we have noticed is that it would be much easier for both Parliament and others who are looking at this if the government provided regular reports on the progress of this program specifically. I think that would be very helpful, because they have all the detailed information concerning who's getting the money, who's spending it, and how much progress they have made. It would be extremely useful to have their point of view as to how things are evolving and how much success they have had in those projects.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

I'll be giving the rest of my time to my colleague Vance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Badawey.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair and Mr. Iacono.

I have a few questions with respect to performance measures. I asked the municipalities earlier about their being expected, along with the province, to provide us with their outcomes or indicators and, therefore, to establish performance measures. That's something I'll be pushing for.

Do you think that would be the obvious route to take, to work with our partners in establishing their outcomes, and establishing, based on those outcomes, the indicators that would drive that, and then, of course, from there with their asset management plans etc., establish proper performance measures?

[Mostafa Askari]

Certainly that would be very useful from that end. I guess, on the other hand, the federal government is spending the money, so they have to have their own measurement and performance framework to assess how their money is being spent, what the outcomes are, and whether they can achieve the targets from that.