Evidence of meeting #52 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fatigue.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. Fox, you talked about regulatory oversight. What is the biggest issue with regard to regulatory oversight, and what would be the best way to address it?
11:45 a.m.
Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
The issues with respect to regulatory oversight are multiple. First, there's currently not a requirement for all aviation and other operators to have a safety management system, and we believe that should be a requirement.
Second, we think there needs to be a better balance between inspections and audits for compliance with regulations, which is one form of regulatory oversight, and audits of the effectiveness of safety management systems, which is another form of regulatory oversight. It's our understanding that Transport Canada has undertaken a program review, and is updating or reviewing the way it provides regulatory oversight. We look forward to the results of that study later this year.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you.
You also talked about fatigue, and you just admitted that there's a difference between the rail industry and the airline industry. Do you think the rules in Canada with regard to the hours of flight are appropriate?
11:45 a.m.
Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
I know that's something that's being discussed between Transport Canada and the industry right now, and we don't comment on proposed regulatory changes. All I can tell you is that based on our data, there have definitely been instances where fatigue management was an issue in aviation occurrences, so anything that can be done to improve and reduce the risk of fatigue in aviation is probably a good thing.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
I know you can't comment, but do you have any suggestions or anything that maybe we should be looking at, a direction that you can give us?
11:45 a.m.
Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
I don't have anything specific to the regulations. It's just important to remember that pilots are pilots, and when they're flying in the middle of the night or when they're flying long days or hours, they can succumb to fatigue, which can affect performance.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
You talked about an expedited process to respond to TSB's recommendations. How do you envision such a process?
11:45 a.m.
Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Partly, it's a question of priorities. When TSB makes a safety recommendation, we only do so when we've identified a high, systemic risk that affects a large segment of the industry and that, we believe, warrants the highest level of regulatory action. We would like to see Transport Canada commit to addressing the recommendations, especially the backlog that has existed for more than 10 years. We should also also look at the process through Justice, and through Treasury Board, which also has an impact on the rule-making process.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Overall and in comparison with similar countries, do you think Canada has a safe air transportation system?
11:45 a.m.
Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
I can't really make comparisons with other countries because our mandate focuses on Canada. However, I can say that, if we assess the state of security in Canada based on the statistics I just mentioned, for example, our performance is very much in line with the performance of the other developed countries.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
11:45 a.m.
Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Yes, always, especially when it comes to the regulations and monitoring by the regulator. Even though our performance has been good for 10 years, progress still needs to be made.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
How can we ensure Transport Canada responds faster when the TSB makes recommendations?
11:45 a.m.
Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
On the one hand, I think the Department of Transportation or the other departments and regulators must commit to responding to our recommendations, especially when they're in favour of them.
On the other hand, the process, which also involves the Department of Justice and the Treasury Board, must be faster. It shouldn't take 10 or 20 years.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
If there's some time left after my one question, I'll defer to Mr. Badawey.
You were saying that the air taxi industry record is problematic. We've been talking about fatigue in terms of the number of hours flown by a pilot, but is there also concern about the number of takeoffs and landings that a pilot might have to do in the course of a shift?
11:50 a.m.
Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Our air taxi study is going to look at a number of factors that have affected accidents and incidents in that area, and fatigue will certainly be one of the aspects we're looking at. Takeoffs and landings are certainly a very critical phase of flight, and most accidents occur in one or the other phase. If somebody is doing a lot of takeoffs and landings in a day, that's certainly something that can play into their fatigue.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
I have a quick question.
Mr. Hardie earlier asked you about the lack of resources throughout the past 10 plus years, in which you said those challenges did exist. In your opinion, what would have been the cause for a lot of the recommendations or the deficiencies you've recognized? What, in your opinion, would have been the challenge throughout the past 10 years with Transport Canada not addressing those challenges?
11:50 a.m.
Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
The TSB's concern is primarily with those that date from more than 10 years and more than 20 years. If you look at Transport Canada's response to our recommendations, the first response is often that they're going to do a study, they're going to hold a focus group, they're going to consult industry, they're going to harmonize with international standards, or they're going to look at what's happening in the U.S. Then sometimes that approach changes. Sometimes they opt for a voluntary rather than a mandatory approach, and then it just seems to carry on and on.
In terms of what's going on inside the department, I can't answer that question. I can only say that we've just gotten to a point where we say it's too long. There are known risks out there that could be addressed and that aren't being addressed.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
This is my last question. With respect to moving forward now, I have to give a lot of compliments to the entire committee around the table with respect to being very pragmatic on a lot of the issues we've dealt with in the past year, railway being one of them. Obviously, from your comments, you would support the recommendations coming from this committee on aviation study, on safety, in terms of not only what we discussed earlier with respect to airports but also fatigue and a whole gamut of challenges I'm sure you recognized throughout your years and in the deficiencies you've brought forward, as well as our reporting those back to Transport, and of course it being pragmatic in actually implementing some of those recommendations.
11:50 a.m.
Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
I'm sorry, I'm not clear on the question.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
The question is whether you would support the direction this committee would take.
11:50 a.m.
Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Yes. I think we have limited resources at all levels in the industry, and it's important to identify the real safety risks and where we need to focus the resources and the level of effort in order to get to the real safety problems. That's why we have identified on our watch-lists the issues we believe pose the greatest risks to aviation.
