Transport Committee on Sept. 11th, 2017

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

You mentioned in response to an earlier question that when it comes to voice recording in rail, there's no international standard here. It's being driven at the domestic level. Are there other countries in the global community that have adopted voice and video recorders that have seen a decrease in the number of incidents?

[Kathleen Fox]

If we look at the statistics, even in Canada in aviation and marine, overall, there's been a decrease in the accident rate.

I'm going to put you on the spot, Mr. Clitsome, and ask whether on the international side for aviation you have any demonstrable studies.

[Mark Clitsome, Special Advisor, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board]

As far as I'm aware, there are no studies, but obviously the accident rate is trending down and a lot of that has to do with technology and the use of on-board recorders.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

It makes sense to me that if it's trending downwards and towards safer transport, this may have played a role and we're just not quite sure how much.

To revisit your comment, Ms. Fox, about how being recorded can change the way a person behaves, your example about using a device when maybe you should be looking at the signal is well taken. Obviously that's hazardous behaviour. Is there a possibility that being recorded could actually change the way a person does their job in a negative way? I know sometimes in my previous career if I went out for lunch and chatted with friends over a beer, although I wasn't on the clock, I may have come up with a good idea that I put into practice, although it was against the office policy.

Is there any concern that it's going to change the behaviour of a person who might ordinarily be quite good at their job or that it could impact their ability to do it safely?

[Kathleen Fox]

I'm not aware of any negative consequences, and we certainly haven't seen that in the aviation world, where voice recordings have been around for many years. I think after a while the fact that they're being recorded may just blend in with the scenery, so to speak. It may not be obvious to them over time.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'm curious as well. You mentioned that in some instances TSB might use the data and the recordings to take action against an operator if there is some sort of a pattern of unsafe behaviour. Is there a mechanism in place that's going to prevent the operator from identifying the individuals to eliminate this fear of reprisals?

[Kathleen Fox]

First of all, the Transportation Safety Board's only mandate is to advance transportation safety. We conduct investigations following occurrences, accidents, and incidents. We don't have regulatory or enforcement powers. That is up to the specific regulator, in this case, Transport Canada. The provisions under the act would be that unless there was a threat to safety, the recordings could not be used against an individual employee because of any action, unless it involved tampering with the recording equipment.

However, it could be used by the regulator to take enforcement action against the operator but not against the individual employee.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Can you just walk me through? I'm by no means a rail safety expert, notwithstanding that we've gone through a study on this committee. I like the idea that we're trying to be preventative and not just reactive here. Is the real prevention mechanism just the random audit by operators to determine whether we are doing things right?

Can you walk me through the process to say how this is going to prevent more accidents from taking place?

[Kathleen Fox]

If we look at the use by the railway companies, they can use it in two specific circumstances under Bill C-49. One is to investigate an incident or an accident that is not being investigated by the TSB.

The other is that on a random-sampling basis, as part of their safety management system, they can do samples to look at how crews are operating the train. During that period, they may identify procedural deficiencies or training deficiencies, on which they could then take action on a systemic basis to reduce risk.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much for that quick response.

Mr. Hardie.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First, I think that if Canadians knew a little bit more about your board, the work that it does, and the way it approaches it, they would have a great deal of confidence in the safety of the system. In our past sessions, I've certainly appreciated how candid you've been and the clarity that you offer.

In that regard, looking at the airline industry, what kind of impact would it have on the way you do your job, particularly on the remedies that you're looking for, if fault were in fact included in your assessment of a situation?

[Kathleen Fox]

Our mandate is to investigate, to find out what happened and why it happened, not to attribute blame or to assign criminal or civil responsibility. That leaves our interaction with people very free in terms of their being forthright in telling us what happened, because they know it can't be used against them for either enforcement purposes or civil or criminal liability. I think that we get a lot more benefit from the fact that it can't be used against them, in terms of identifying what went wrong and what needs to be done to prevent it from happening again.

That being said, if we identify something such as inappropriate use of electronic devices or some other issue, we do not refrain from reporting on it, because somebody else might infer blame.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Is that what you were referring to, at least in the first part of your answer, when you talked about privilege? If somebody tells you, chapter and verse, everything that happened, can they do so without fear of retribution, because it's all privileged?

[Kathleen Fox]

Under our act, what's privileged are on-board recordings. Voice and video recordings are privileged and cannot be released except under certain very defined situations that are specified in our act. They usually have to be ordered by a court. Even then, they are subject to a confidentiality agreement.

The other information that is privileged is witness statements.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Given the flags that have already been raised about reasonable access to the data captured by LVVRs, such as privacy and the potential for misuse, would it not simply be better if your board owned that data right from the moment it was created?

[Kathleen Fox]

There are hundreds of thousands of movements. If you talk about all modes of transport, it's millions, in terms of air, rail, and marine. We only investigate in a very small number of cases. We get roughly 3,500 occurrence reports per year. We do about 60 full investigations with a public report, although all the other occurrences are also documented. The operators are ultimately responsible for the safety of their operations, and of course, the regulator is there to make sure that happens.

In all those cases where we don't have reason to investigate, they really would benefit more than we would by having that data, in order to identify deficiencies in training, unclear procedures, and the need for greater supervision.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

What happens after a crash or after an accident is one thing. Obviously, access to the data there is critical, but before something happens, is there value in the system investigating a rash of breaches, for instance? Looking at rail operations, what rules are most often breached? What would you love to find out is going on when those rules are being breached?

[Kathleen Fox]

First of all, we don't only investigate accidents. We also investigate incidents where there was a risk of an accident, which if left unattended could...so we do investigate incidents, even if there was no injury or damage per se.

In terms of the railway industry, they've developed a lot of surveillance technology from the point of view of the conditions of the rail and the condition of the train. That has caused a significant reduction in those types of accidents. What we're missing is on the human-factor side.

Why is it that a crew wouldn't see or respond to a stop signal that's coming up? Why did they not call the signals to each other? Why were they going too fast through a particular area where they were supposed to be operating more slowly? Those are the things that we need to see in our investigations, to point out deficiencies. We believe the railway companies, with the benefit of that information, subject to the safeguards that we mentioned, will be able to take action before an accident occurs to reduce the risk of an accident.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Do you know, for instance, if a signal has been missed, or if a train has exceeded a speed limit going through a certain area? Would that be somehow captured and recorded that would then give you the opportunity to go back to the data captured and find out what was going on?

[Kathleen Fox]

Those types of events, where a signal is missed, where the movement exceeds what's called “the limits of authority”, are reportable occurrences under our act. We don't always investigate completely with a full report. It depends on the situation, but we have investigated many of those and that is what led us to recommend video recorders in addition to the audio recorders that we recommended several years previously, as well as some form of automated control to stop or slow a train if a signal isn't properly responded to.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much. Time is up.

Mr. Shields.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. I appreciate the witnesses being here today.

Following up on that a little bit, obviously there is push-back from the engineers in the sense of moving to this. I know you talked about four different ways you've modelled that you might use it, and what direction you might.... Were the engineers involved in that process?

[Kirby Jang]

Specifically within the safety study, no, they weren't, but as part of the guidance that was provided to the railways that were participating in the study, there were certain guidelines that had to be respected, which include advising the operating crew that they were being monitored through on-board recorders.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

You say it included advising.... I've been through this in the enforcement industry, and it was the enforcement industry that brought this for their own protection. We said, “Be careful what you ask for.” If you're looking at doing this and you're not involving them, I'm a little curious as to why not.