Evidence of meeting #68 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was railways.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Bourque  President and Chief Executive Officer, Railway Association of Canada
Jeff Ellis  Chief Legal Officer and Corporate Secretary, Canadian Pacific Railway
James Clements  Vice-President, Strategic Planning and Transportation Services, Canadian Pacific Railway
Sean Finn  Executive Vice-President, Corporate Services, Canadian National Railway Company
Janet Drysdale  Vice-President, Corporate Development, Canadian National Railway Company
Keith Shearer  General Manager, Regulatory and Operating Practices, Canadian Pacific Railway
Michael Farkouh  Vice-President, Eastern Region, Canadian National Railway Company
Wade Sobkowich  Executive Director, Western Grain Elevator Association
Chris Vervaet  Executive Director, Canadian Oilseed Processors Association
Norm Hall  Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Agriculture
David Montpetit  President and Chief Executive Officer, Western Canadian Shippers' Coalition
Lucia Stuhldreier  Senior Legal Advisor, Western Canadian Shippers' Coalition
Perry Pellerin  President, Western Canadian Short Line Railway Association
Kevin Auch  Chair, Alberta Wheat Commission
Béland Audet  President, Institut en Culture Sécurité Industrielle Mégantic
Brad Johnston  General Manager, Logistics and Planning, Teck Resources Limited
Robert Ballantyne  President, Freight Management Association of Canada
Forrest Hume  Legal Advisor, and Partner, DLA Piper (Canada) LLP, Freight Management Association of Canada
Greg Northey  Director, Industry Relations, Pulse Canada
Phil Benson  Lobbyist, Teamsters Canada
Roland Hackl  Vice-President, Teamsters Canada Rail Conference
Clyde Graham  Senior Vice-President, Fertilizer Canada
Ian MacKay  Legal Counsel, Fertilizer Canada

10:50 a.m.

Chief Legal Officer and Corporate Secretary, Canadian Pacific Railway

Jeff Ellis

If I may, I can say as well—and Sean may have heard similar comments when we were in the U.S. meeting with the American roads in the context of the AAR—that the U.S. roads are also quite concerned with protecting what's already there in terms of NAFTA and volumes to their businesses. With any luck, that will remain a priority on both sides of the border.

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

Guy Lauzon Conservative Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON

Since I am a visitor here, some of these questions might be naive, but Ms. Drysdale, you mentioned truck and rail. Can you just give me an idea of how competitive rail is with trucking? In this incident you talked about, putting a line into a certain area, how would those compare?

10:50 a.m.

Vice-President, Corporate Development, Canadian National Railway Company

Janet Drysdale

Rail is most competitive when we're talking about long-haul shipments. The number that we use often in the industry is about 500 miles. So if it's shorter than 500 miles, it will be very difficult for rail to compete with truck. In the instance I referred to, the shipper was actually using truck to get onto the rail network, but at a point much further down than their actual physical location.

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

Guy Lauzon Conservative Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON

Another thing you mentioned and I've heard about is how much business we're losing to the U.S. How much is that of your total business? How much are we losing—5%, 2%, 9%?

10:50 a.m.

Vice-President, Corporate Development, Canadian National Railway Company

Janet Drysdale

In CN's context, in the context of business law specifically related to the extended interswitching under Bill C-30, it's probably in the order of a couple of thousand carloads.

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

Guy Lauzon Conservative Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON

What would it be percentage-wise?

10:50 a.m.

Vice-President, Corporate Development, Canadian National Railway Company

Janet Drysdale

Percentage-wise it would be very small. Our concern is the potential going forward particularly with the long-haul interswitching.

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

Guy Lauzon Conservative Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON

Okay.

10:55 a.m.

Vice-President, Strategic Planning and Transportation Services, Canadian Pacific Railway

James Clements

We would say that on long-haul interswitching—I'm doing rough numbers in my head—over 20% of our revenue is at least exposed to the potential to connect to a U.S. carrier.

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

Guy Lauzon Conservative Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON

I think CN invested $20 billion recently in infrastructure, and CP $7.7 billion or something. I think those were the figures. How much of that money went into safety? Could somebody give me a ballpark figure?

10:55 a.m.

Vice-President, Strategic Planning and Transportation Services, Canadian Pacific Railway

James Clements

A large portion of it goes into safety, because even if you're putting in new rail or ties, it is improving the quality of the basic infrastructure.

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

Guy Lauzon Conservative Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON

How much was directly earmarked for improvement in safety?

10:55 a.m.

Vice-President, Strategic Planning and Transportation Services, Canadian Pacific Railway

James Clements

I would look to my colleague.

10:55 a.m.

General Manager, Regulatory and Operating Practices, Canadian Pacific Railway

Keith Shearer

I'm stretching here a bit, but I would say probably in the order of 70% goes into safety in terms of technology investment and, as James said, rail ties, ballast, cars, and locomotives.

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

Guy Lauzon Conservative Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON

So 70% is earmarked for safety and 30% is for profit making.

10:55 a.m.

General Manager, Regulatory and Operating Practices, Canadian Pacific Railway

Keith Shearer

It would be capacity expansion.

10:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much, Mr. Lauzon.

Mr. Aubin.

10:55 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair,

I would like to talk about the same thing, interswitching. As I listen to you, it seems that long-haul interswitching is the devil incarnate.

My question has two parts.

First, does that mean that the concept of interswitching as provided for in Bill C-30 would be acceptable from now on as a way to try to re-establish the negotiation power between producers and carriers?

Second, we have been talking for some time about long-haul interswitching along a north to south axis. I come from Trois-Rivières, Quebec, a city that ships grain, among other things. Can I assume that the principle of long-haul interswitching must also apply along an east to west access? Do the same problems exist in that direction?

10:55 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Corporate Services, Canadian National Railway Company

Sean Finn

I would not say that it is the devil incarnate, but you have to understand that the intent of Bill C-30 was to establish temporary measures to deal with quite an exceptional problem. There had been a major grain harvest, almost a record harvest, as well as a very difficult winter. In terms of the effect of Bill C-30, I could show that, once the winter was over, in March 2014, the rail companies shipped all the grain that needed to be delivered. You cannot really establish that the measures in Bill C-30 helped with the transportation of grain. With Bill C-30, once the winter was over, we managed to clear the backlog caused by the hard winter and by the record grain harvest.

It is important to understand that, in situations where shippers claim to be captive according to the definition in the proposal, that is, when shippers have access to one railway only, they can actually use trucks or other means of transportation. That allows shippers to make choices.

We gave you the example of the Americans who have access to the Canadian network at internetwork interchange points in Canada. We do not have the same access to internetwork interchange points in the United States. That is especially the case with CN, for example, which goes from Chicago to Louisiana. We cannot get access in the same way.

10:55 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

I completely understood the problem on the north-south access. I would like to know the situation on the east-west axis.

10:55 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Corporate Services, Canadian National Railway Company

Sean Finn

On the east-west access, there is no doubt that a lot of competition exists between CN and CP. When the interswitching distance was 30 km, it was in urban areas, especially industrial areas. It’s important to state that the exceptions established so that American railway companies do not have access to the entire network are the same as those on the north-south axis.

So rest assured; it is possible for a shipper in Trois-Rivières to have access to the CN or the CP network using shortlines. That exists today.

The 30-km interswitching distance has been very good for a number of years. The 160-km distance was a temporary measure. There is no doubt that an interswitching distance of 1,200 km will create major problems.

10:55 a.m.

Vice-President, Corporate Development, Canadian National Railway Company

Janet Drysdale

If I could just add to clarify, I want to make—

10:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

I'm sorry. We've gone beyond 11 o'clock.

I want to thank the panel members so very much for coming today. You've given us a lot of really good information.

We will suspend momentarily while we exchange for a new panel.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

I will reconvene the meeting.

For this panel, we have the Western Grain Elevator Association, the Canadian Oilseed Processors Association, as well as the Canadian Federation of Agriculture.

I'll turn to the Western Grain Elevator Association to lead off.

11:15 a.m.

Wade Sobkowich Executive Director, Western Grain Elevator Association

Thank you very much, Madam Chair and members of the committee.

The Western Grain Elevator Association is pleased to contribute to your study on Bill C-49. The WGEA represents Canada's six major grain-handling companies. Collectively, we handle in excess of 90% of western Canada's bulk grain movements.

Effective rail transportation underpins our industry's ability to succeed in a globally competitive market. We recognize this committee's comprehensive work last year. That was a very important report that this committee completed. The one published in December 2016 largely supported our points of view on the main issues.

In Bill C-49, a number of recommendations made by grain shippers were accepted and a number were not. We were asking the government to strengthen the definition of “adequate and suitable accommodation” to ensure that the railways' obligation to provide service was based on the demands and needs of the shipper, and not on what the railway was willing to supply. The definition proposed in Bill C-49 isn't explicitly based on shipper demand. There are positives and negatives with this new definition.

We were seeking the ability to arbitrate penalties into service-level agreements for poor performance, along with a dispute resolution mechanism to address disagreements in a signed service-level agreement. We are pleased that this is included in Bill C-49. It will resolve many of our challenges on rail performance matters.

We were requesting that extended interswitching be made permanent to allow for the continuation of one of the most effective competitive tools that we have ever seen in rail transportation. Extended interswitching was not made permanent—a significant loss to us.

We were asking that the government maintain and improve on the maximum revenue entitlement to protect farmers from monopolistic pricing. This protection was maintained; however, soybeans remain excluded from this protection.

The WGEA had also supported expanding the agency's authority to unilaterally review and act on performance problems in the rail system, similar to what the U.S. Surface Transportation Board enjoys in the U.S. Bill C-49 includes the provision for the agency to informally look into performance problems, but it doesn't give the agency added power to correct systemic issues.

Lastly, the WGEA was asking the government to improve the transparency and robustness of rail performance data. This has been improved in Bill C-49; however, shipper-related demand data is still not captured. Later this week, some of our colleagues in the grain industry will provide additional perspectives on use of the data, timelines, and reporting to the minister. The WGEA shares their views.

To be clear, on balance, this bill is a significant improvement over the existing legislation and is a positive step forward for the grain industry. As a result, we are choosing to offer only four technical amendments, representing the bare minimum of changes, where the proposed legislation would not be workable and would not result in what the government intended. The main area is long-haul interswitching.

For your reference, annex A, which we circulated to committee members in advance, contains our suggested legislative wording amendments. The extended interswitching order had been in effect for the last three growing seasons and had evolved into an invaluable tool for western grain shippers. Instead, the new long-haul interswitching provision is intended to create these competitive options. In that spirit, shippers need to be able to access interchanges that make the most logistical and economic sense, not necessarily the interchange that's closest.

In terms of reasonable direction of the traffic and its destination, the current wording in proposed subsection 129(1) may give a shipper access to the nearest competing rail line, but this would be of little or no value if the nearest interswitch takes the traffic in the wrong direction for the shipment's final destination, if the nearest interchange does not have the capacity to take on the size of the shipment, or if the nearest competing rail company does not have rail lines running the full distance to the shipment's destination. For the committee's reference, we've circulated annex B, which visually depicts real-world examples of where accessing the nearest interchange makes neither logistical nor economic sense.

Two clauses need to be amended to better reflect the spirit of creating competitive options. If you go to map 1 in the package we circulated, you will see an example of an elevator that has access to an interchange within 30 kilometres, but that interchange takes the traffic in the wrong direction. Bill C-49 stipulates in proposed paragraph 129(3)(a) that a shipper may not obtain a long-haul interswitch if a competing rail line is within a distance of 30 kilometres.

Sending a shipment in the wrong direction or to the wrong rail line is cost prohibitive and in those cases renders the interswitch useless. A shipper that happens to be within 30 kilometres of an interswitch that is of no use to them is excluded from long-haul interswitching and is put at a competitive disadvantage.

A similar problem exists for dual service facilities given the prohibition in proposed paragraph 129(1)(a). The solution to this problem is to add the wording “in the reasonable direction of the traffic and its destination” to proposed paragraphs 129(1)(a) and 129(3)(a). This language already exists in the legislation in proposed section 136.1 for other purposes and needs to be replicated in proposed section 129.

On long-haul interswitching rates, proposed paragraph 135(1)(a) of the bill directs the agency to calculate the rate by referring to historical comparable rates, but most comparable rates to date have been set under monopolistic conditions. If the rates themselves are non-competitive and may be the very reason a shipper wants to apply for a long-haul interswitch in the first place, this process would not effectively address the heart of the problem. We're concerned that without an amendment of the nature that we're proposing, LHI will become like CLRs.

Proposed subsection 135(2) directs the agency to set a rate not less than the average revenue per tonne kilometre of comparable traffic. This enshrines monopoly rate setting. In any reasonable marketplace, profitability is set on how much it costs you to do the business, plus a margin to generate a profit. Simply being able to charge any amount without regard to costs will result in rates divorced from the commercial reality of cost-plus.

We're seeking important changes to proposed paragraph 135(1)(b) and proposed subsection 135(2) to ensure the agency has regard to the cost per tonne kilometre, not the revenue, and that the rates are based on commercially comparable traffic, not just comparable traffic. If long-haul interswitching is to work, the rate has to be based on a reasonable margin to the railway, and not at least as much and maybe more than they can charge in a monopoly setting.

The third area where we have a concern is the list of interchanges. Proposed subsection 136.9(2) sets out the parameters for the railways to publish a list of interchanges as well as removing interchanges from the list. Grain shippers are concerned that the railways would have unilateral discretion to take out of service any interchange they choose.

There is existing legislation already in play: sections 127(1) and (2) under “Interswitching” have a process by which a party can apply to the agency for the ability to use an interchange, and the agency has the power to compel a railway to provide “reasonable facilities” to accommodate an interswitch for that interchange. This same language should apply to long-haul interswitching. From an interchange perspective, both interswitching and long-haul interswitching could apply to the same interchange.

On soybeans and soy production, when the MRE was first established in 2000, soybeans were barely grown on the Prairies, and therefore were not included in the original list of schedule II eligible crops. Since then, soy has become a major player in the Prairies and a commodity that holds significant potential growth for oil, meal, and food uses.

It must be pointed out that the Canadian portion of the U.S. movement of crops into Canada is covered under the MRE. As a result, U.S. corn, for example, that happens to be travelling in Canada is covered under the MRE, while Canadian soybeans are not. There is no reason why the government should not take this opportunity to add soybeans and soy products to schedule II.

In conclusion, Bill C-49 is, on balance, an important step in the right direction.

It's with restraint that we ask the committee to make only four non-invasive technical amendments to ensure it accomplishes what was intended.

Thank you very much.