Transport Committee on Sept. 13th, 2017

[James Given]

We've proven that they don't follow the same regulations when they're in Canada. There are two issues at play. The ship gets a coasting trade waiver. That covers the ship. The crew then apply for work visas through the temporary foreign worker program.

There are two separate issues. When we look at Bill C-30, as with Bill C-49, nothing is changing when it comes to the provisions under the immigration act for that crew. The problem is that the crew members are never told what their wages are supposed to be. They're never told what their rights are when they're working in Canada, because under the TFW program, for all intents and purposes, they're Canadians. They're never told any of this, and they're paid their regular wage, which is $2.50 or $1.90. They're paid that until someone catches them. Also, there's no enforcement. No enforcement officer goes down unless they get a call. If you're a foreign crew member and you don't know that, or you're too afraid to call because of repercussions, you're not going to make that call.

We've had some very good discussions with the ESDC over the last little while where we're going to change some of that process. However, ESDC was also very clear with us that it doesn't chase a shipping company around the world to try to collect our tax, because they should be paying taxes while they're in Canada. The taxation issue on a foreign ship is a big one, along with crew costs.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

If I can explore this a little further, at risk of outing myself as an enormous nerd, when we start looking at the freedom of the high seas and going back to 16th century Dutch philosophy, I don't think we can properly enforce anything that's taking place on the high seas. However, if we got to a stage where we could actually say foreign vessels have to abide by the same standards and if we had an effective enforcement mechanism in Canada, is their ability to operate more or less how they want outside of Canadian waters still going to render Canadian-flag ships uneconomical?

[James Given]

That's perhaps an unanswerable question. When you get into international waters, it's covered by international law and the law of the sea. When you get within the 200-mile limit or the 12-mile limit of Canada, the law then changes. However, again, working under cabotage, the crew members on board the ship are, for all intents and purposes, Canadian crew.

The vessel itself is covered by a temporary waiver. They still have to comply with the flag state, if flag state law exists. Then they are covered by IMO conventions that are enforced through port state control within Canada, if they have the resources to actually go down and inspect every vessel and enforce them. Transport Canada does a fantastic job, but remember, Transport Canada has been broke for about 12 years, so they're working with what they have.

Again, the system that is in place now is the one that is best placed to inspect the vessels and to enforce the legislation and the IMO and ILO conventions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Shields.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We appreciate your being here to inform us.

Mr. Fraser, I would not call you a big nerd, but I'd call you a tall guy.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I was one step away from referencing Hugo Grotius, so we'll wait. You can reserve judgment.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you.

It's an interesting conversation. Do you belong to the international convention that develops the rules out there? Do you belong to the organization? Do you participate in developing those standards?

[James Given]

Actually, I do, through the International Transport Workers' Federation. I'm an expert for them, for the ILO and the IMO.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I understand flag of convenience. I understand how it operates. What percentage of the world operates under the enforced rules that you're talking about and have been part of?

[James Given]

When you look at cabotage, the Center for Seafarers' Rights did a survey for us just a month ago, and we looked at United Nations member countries. Of course, we excluded the countries that were landlocked, and then we looked at the countries that had two ports or more. Sixty-seven per cent of those countries have some form of cabotage. So the idea that cabotage is unique to Canada or we're doing something wrong compared to the rest of the world is false. Sixty-seven per cent of United Nations countries with two or more ports have some form of cabotage.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

You're talking about labour standards, safety, training—all of those things that are in the IMO that you're involved in developing. What percentage of those countries enforce that?

[James Given]

The traditional maritime nations, when you look at Canada, the United States, Norway.... Sweden is the first registry. Norway is the first registry. Denmark is the first registry. Germany is the first registry. They're not their second registries. Those countries are strong maritime nations. It's when you get into the FOC countries—Liberia, Panama, and all of those countries that don't enforce shit—

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I get that.

[James Given]

—it's left up to the rest of the world to try to enforce it.

Yes, I did say that. Excuse me.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Are the countries that are signatories to this, that develop these, enforcing them in their own waters?

[James Given]

Yes, but remember, ILO is a minimum standard.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I get that.

[James Given]

Let's take the Philippines. When a Philippines overseas worker leaves the country to work on a vessel, he leaves with a POEA contract—a Philippines overseas employment—and a lot of times those state the minimum ILO conditions of work. I was an ITF inspector. I inspected foreign ships. Last year the ITF collected over $22 million U.S. in unpaid wages, where the Filipino and the Indonesian wouldn't even get the ILO minimum in their overseas employment contract. They would go six to seven months without any pay, or if they did get paid, it was half of what the ILO recommendation was, because there's no enforcement. We can say as governments, we can say as NGOs, we can say as unions and companies that we're going to enforce the ILO and IMO, and we're going to enforce all of that, but there's no enforcement on the high seas.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

We're talking about in Canadian waters, because that's the piece we can deal with. I'm looking at whether other countries will enforce the minimum. You're saying no.

[James Given]

No.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Okay.

Ms. Clark, you talked about enforcement of existing laws and regulations. You said the existing regulations—I think we've heard the same from others—are good, and you said all those pieces are there, and you said existing staff could do this, and you just said there would be no cost increase when you said that, because the rules are there, the regulations are there, existing staff are there, and you said you just have to do it.

[Sarah Clark]

I think that's the basis of our point. We have the conditions. We meet all the standards that Canada requires. Whether it be in wages, safety, taxation, or environment—which was raised by Mr. Fournier—we are compliant. We are audited. And we believe in those standards for our crew. It's not just wages; it's the standards we provide on the ship as well for living conditions. These people are on the ship for two weeks at a time, and in your case longer maybe when you go south.

[A voice]

It's three weeks.

[Sarah Clark]

It's three weeks. We're supplying these very well-paying, middle-class jobs to people who are very skilled and who have taken the time to have that training and spent the money on that.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

We're saying the rules and regulations are there and the existing staff could enforce them—