Transport Committee on April 11th, 2016

[Christine Collins]

What it looks like on the ground is that the focus is all on SMS audits. The inspectors are spending less and less time doing unannounced inspections and oversight.

In rail, in theory they have two sets of employees. One set is auditors and one set is inspectors. However, given the direction from the previous government, inspectors are now spending time doing audits. The whole focus has shifted from the inspector side to the SMS audits as more and more companies are online with SMS. Unless they discover a problem, it's really a paper exercise.

[Dianne Lynn Watts, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

That's right, because I would think that the inspector should actually go out and be there and inspect. We had Transport Canada here, I think at the previous meeting, and I was trying to drill down on this and have that discussion. This is in alignment with what you've said.

I want to go back to another point here, about 1-800 whistle-blowers. I think you said that within minutes the rail companies can find out who actually made a particular call. That would seem to me to defeat the purpose of being anonymous. There has to be another mechanism in place for how that information gets relayed, distinct from a 1-800 number, if the rail company is going to find out within minutes and then cause them to be fired. Isn't that so?

Again, what would it look like, if there's whistle-blower legislation in place? I think everybody's on the same page insofar as any kind of safety is concerned.

Does anybody want to...?

[Jerry Dias]

It's interesting, because....

Let me switch gears for a moment. Under the occupational health and safety act a worker is entitled to refuse unsafe work, and the legislation protects them so that they can't be disciplined by their employer. If in fact a person who has had a clear record all of a sudden refuses unsafe work and the employer disciplines them a few days or a few weeks down the road, it's not too difficult for an inspector, an outside person, to take a look and see that there's a clear correlation.

I think it really has to start with some sort of protection, and it has to be obviously monitored by Transport Canada. I think that's a part of it.

[Phil Benson]

The 1-800 mechanism and the whistle-blower protection that we mentioned are contained in the safety management system controlled by a company. What we've said is—

[Dianne Lynn Watts, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

So it has to be moved out of that.

[Phil Benson]

—that there are a whole bunch of sections that we have to take out of the SMS and put into the power of the government, because then, if they try to discipline you, it's not a fight with us at CIRB; it's the government coming down their neck saying, “you can't do that”.

[Dianne Lynn Watts, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Yes, so it's shifting it. That makes total sense to me.

My next—

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Is it short, because your time is up?

[Dianne Lynn Watts, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

It's around the protocol in place now for transporting of dangerous goods through communities. I've heard that it should be done in real time. Now, I understand that either the haz-mat units or the fire department will have that information or will obtain that information, and I don't believe it's in real time—

[Phil Benson]

That's correct; it's not in real time.

[Dianne Lynn Watts, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

No, it's not in real time.

What mechanism should be put in place? Would it be upon departure, or would all the communities along the route be advised that this is coming through their community in x amount of time?

[Don Ashley]

The railway already has that ability. They have real-time tracking on every train. When a train goes in and out of communities, they go by readers. It's just a matter, then, of making them provide that information to the community or to the appropriate person.

[Dianne Lynn Watts, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

They can provide it, but not in real time.

[Don Ashley]

Right, but you could make them provide it. If you made them provide it in real time, they could.

[Dianne Lynn Watts, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

It would require, then, a change in legislation. Okay.

[Brian Stevens]

Let me say quickly on this point that while focusing on this relaying of information to municipalities is all great stuff, our focus should be on making sure that the railways are operating safely and that the cars stay on the tracks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you.

Ms. Duncan, you have three minutes.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

First of all, I want to thank Mr. Benson for recommending that we also hear from community groups. I recommended six or seven, and I'm going to make that case, if we have a discussion about this. The Federation of Canadian Municipalities should definitely be heard, and first nations too; there are many people.

Most of the discussions to date on regulation of the rails, frankly, have been between the rail industry and government, and quite often the workers—which is good. However, the people who have been excluded are the people who are being impacted by these derailments.

I want to go to the point made by Ms. Collins about inadequate enforcement compliance response since the three-fold increase—and, coming soon, a 10-fold increase—in the shipping of oil by rail. We're not dealing with a sector any more that's shipping grain and logs and automobiles or whatever, but this is now a significant, risky industrial sector.

Have you found your job to be more difficult and that you need more intensive training? Do you feel you need a different skill base, now that you're dealing with rail companies of quite a different character?

[Christine Collins]

That would be very true, but when we look at the dangerous goods directorate at Transport Canada, they have gone from what I would say are the specialists to the generalists, because the dangerous goods directorate is now multimodal. The dangerous goods inspectors are no longer rail or aviation specialists. Dangerous goods are dangerous goods no matter what the mode is. That's clearly not the way we believe it.

The way they are doing that is very problematic. Whenever you take away the specialists and make them generalists, you know it won't be great.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'm new to this portfolio since the last election, and it's massive. As you know, if you work in transport, the rail industry itself is complex, and it has taken me a while to figure out how many entities there are. I'm looking forward to the Transportation Safety Board's coming in as well, because we don't really have that in the other industrial sectors. One group goes in and investigates the accident; the other group investigates and maybe brings charges.

As the enforcers on behalf of the public, do you think you have sufficient enforcement powers, and do you find that your enforcement powers are being fettered in any way by enforcement people at headquarters who are not necessarily trained?

[Christine Collins]

I'll try to respond to that. We do have an enforcement group at Transport Canada. The inspectors themselves used to be part of the enforcement group, and they were the ones that would make the recommendations or give the order and go to court. Now it's a two-step process, and again, enforcement is going multimodal, but they are viewed by Transport Canada as the experts to proceed with enforcement.

At the Transportation Safety Board, they are the investigators, but that board has no authority whatsoever. They are a recommending body, so their role is to say what is wrong, that this is what needs to be done, that this is how to correct it, which they then put in the hands of Transport Canada, the regulator. That is wrong as well. The Transportation Safety Board really needs powers to ensure that what they find has gone wrong is fixed.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Can Mr. Teeter supplement that?

[Michael Teeter]

Christine said this in her opening comments, but it's very important that the minister sets the tone. The powers exist in the acts for the minister's delegates, the inspectors, to take action, to put a go-slow order in place or whatever. However, if the inspectors and the people they report to fear they are going to be overturned, that there is going to be some political implication to their taking action, then they stop doing it, or they become nervous about what they are supposed to do.

The signals from the top have to be clearly given, and they haven't been for some time. It could change. We have a new government. It could change.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mr. Teeter.

Mr. Berthold, you have six minutes.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to share my time with Ms. Block.

Like Ms. Watts and Mr. Badawey, I too was mayor of my community, Thetford Mines. I am sure that we obtain accurate information when we speak directly to people who work on the ground. Gentlemen, I was quite stunned earlier when you talked about whistleblowers and dismissals.

Have your unions recorded the number of grievances, dismissals or disciplinary measures taken against whistleblowers? You may each answer in turn. I would like to have a clear picture of the situation in order to know just what is happening on the ground. This is an important aspect of what you have been saying today.