Evidence of meeting #76 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tankers.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Natasha Rascanin  Assistant Deputy Minister, Transformation, Department of Transport
Gillian Grant  Team Leader and Senior Counsel, Maritime Law, Department of Transport
Jennifer Saxe  Acting Director General, Marine Policy, Department of Transport

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much. We are reconvening our meeting. We have with us our departmental officials.

Would you like to introduce yourselves and tell us your positions?

4:30 p.m.

Natasha Rascanin Assistant Deputy Minister, Transformation, Department of Transport

Good afternoon. I'm Natasha Rascanin, assistant deputy minister at Transport Canada for transformation.

4:30 p.m.

Gillian Grant Team Leader and Senior Counsel, Maritime Law, Department of Transport

I'm Gillian Grant. I'm senior counsel at Transport Canada legal services.

4:30 p.m.

Jennifer Saxe Acting Director General, Marine Policy, Department of Transport

I'm Jennifer Saxe. I'm acting director general for marine policy.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you for being here.

We'll open the questions with Ms. Block.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Thank you very much.

The news release put out when this bill was introduced, which I think was dated May 12, 2017, states:

Vessels carrying less than 12,500 metric tons of crude or persistent oil as cargo will continue to be permitted in the moratorium area to ensure northern communities can receive critical shipments of heating oils and other products.

Can you tell us approximately how many tonnes of oil are currently shipped to these northern communities each year? Also, has there been a serious spill in northern B.C. involving one of these ships where thousands of tonnes of oil were spilled?

4:30 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Transformation, Department of Transport

Natasha Rascanin

I can't give you an answer in tonnes. We certainly looked at traffic, volumes, and types of products that are being shipped in that area, both for community resupply and for industry resupply. Based on that analysis, this was the limit that made sense to permit the kinds of shipping taking place currently.

In my awareness, there has not been a serious accident in the north of B.C. before.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Okay. You couldn't tell us in tonnes how much oil is being shipped into these northern communities, but you said that you did look at traffic. Approximately how many of these smaller vessels would be travelling into these northern communities carrying around that 12,500-tonne benchmark?

4:30 p.m.

Acting Director General, Marine Policy, Department of Transport

Jennifer Saxe

For vessels that are carrying less than 12,500 metric tons, which includes tugs and barges, there is traffic in ships that occurs for that community and industry resupply purpose. What we have done is a full study, which we did commission, on the community and industry resupply, and that's public and on our website. There's a full analysis of all the types of traffic for the community purposes as well as industry, and it looks at the various types of products as well. Some of that is more regular traffic, while some for industry is more occasional. That full analysis is public on our website.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

You don't have that number for me in terms of how many smaller vessels would be travelling...?

4:35 p.m.

Acting Director General, Marine Policy, Department of Transport

Jennifer Saxe

I don't have a specific number because there are quite a number of different various-sized tugs and barges that go. For the actual specifics, to be able to answer that, the best place would be through the study.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Okay. Thank you.

Are these smaller vessels governed by the same Canadian rules and regulations as the large supertankers when they offload their cargo in Vancouver or on Canada's east coast?

4:35 p.m.

Team Leader and Senior Counsel, Maritime Law, Department of Transport

Gillian Grant

I'm not a marine safety expert, but based on my understanding of the legislative regime, I would say that, generally speaking, the rules with respect to loading and unloading of barges and tankers are the same, yes.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Perhaps you could tell me how Canada's rules and regulations with respect to the loading and unloading of oil and petroleum products compare with the rules and regulations of other G7 countries?

4:35 p.m.

Team Leader and Senior Counsel, Maritime Law, Department of Transport

Gillian Grant

Canada's rules with respect to oil tankers are largely set by the International Maritime Organization. They're set out in the international convention from which we draw the definition of crude oil. It's called “MARPOL” in its short form. These rules are negotiated at the IMO, and Canada implements them through its own law. That would be consistent, really, with the rest of the world.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

You may have just answered this for me. Is it your estimation that there are the same rules and regulations in place to govern the unloading or loading of oil on Canada's west coast as on the east coast? There would be no difference there. There is nothing, in terms of the marine environment or anything like that, which might suggest that you needed to do something differently.

4:35 p.m.

Team Leader and Senior Counsel, Maritime Law, Department of Transport

Gillian Grant

The regulatory regime that governs oil tankers, which includes barges, is the same across the country.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Okay. I'm good. Thank you.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Go ahead, Mr. Badawey.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

When the minister was sitting in that seat, I was attempting to get some history, as well as reasoning, behind this bill. I think he was very clear in response to my questions on why we're bringing this to the table.

However, I want to dig a bit deeper into the weeds with respect to a lot of what has been identified throughout Bill C-48. How is this region different from other parts of Canada where tanker traffic is currently permitted?

4:35 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Transformation, Department of Transport

Natasha Rascanin

I think the minister actually did highlight that as well, but this is a very pristine region and a unique ecosystem. Other parts of Canada where there is significant marine traffic of various kinds have a lot of precautionary, infrastructure, and response mechanisms already in place. That is a significant difference that is in play.

October 19th, 2017 / 4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON

Thank you.

Is it likely that Bill C-48 would direct investment and traffic away from Canada and into the United States?

4:35 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Transformation, Department of Transport

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON

It's not likely. Good.

This question is very important because we've heard some comments from different individuals about this, with respect to the future. In the event of new technology for increased safety in the movement of petroleum products, as was the case with the introduction of double-hulled tankers.... We understand what happened in Valdez, Alaska, when the tanker only had a single hull. We saw the outcome of that.

With respect to future technologies, like double-hulled tankers, would this provision allow Transport Canada to amend the schedule of all products subject to the oil tanker moratorium?

4:35 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Transformation, Department of Transport

Natasha Rascanin

The minister was also quite clear that the schedule to the moratorium bill could be amended through the regular regulatory process should innovations in science and the evolution of products, and so on, warrant products to be added or to be removed from the schedule. That is something that would be considered. As we all know, science evolves continually and that is an important consideration to take.