Evidence of meeting #79 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was consultation.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dale Swampy  Coordinator, Aboriginal Equity Partners
Elmer Ghostkeeper  Steward, Aboriginal Equity Partners
John Helin  Mayor, Lax Kw'alaams Band
Margaret Rosling  General Counsel, Nisga'a Lisims Government
Corinne McKay  Secretary-Treasurer, Nisga'a Lisims Government
Eva Clayton  President, Nisga'a Lisims Government
Brian Tait  Chairperson, Nisga'a Lisims Government
Collier Azak  Chief Executive Officer, Nisga'a Lisims Government
Calvin Helin  Chairman and President, Chiefs Council, Eagle Spirit Energy
Gary Alexcee  Deputy Chief, Chiefs Council, Eagle Spirit Energy
Isaac Laboucan-Avirom  Chief, Chiefs Council, Eagle Spirit Energy

4:20 p.m.

Coordinator, Aboriginal Equity Partners

Dale Swampy

Before Elmer gets into it, I wanted to add something. I didn't mention in the benefits, the $2 billion, that the management committee included one of the stewards, but also that in the future, as the northern gateway project was being constructed, there would be an aboriginal president appointed who would be from northern communities. It would be the 31 first nation communities that would select that individual to operate the pipeline. That was significant, and that showed the commitment that the producers, as well as Enbridge, had provided to the communities and the kind of respect they had for the communities in the north.

4:20 p.m.

Steward, Aboriginal Equity Partners

Elmer Ghostkeeper

I can add to that. I sat on the management committee of northern gateway, with all the other partners. We started with a minimum of 10%, but I said right up front that this was just the start. We were at thirty-three and one-third per cent but were going to 50% or 51%, because we do have the expertise and the knowledge in all aspects of pipelining. Aboriginal people have been pipelining for 50 years or more, at least in Alberta, if not in other parts of Canada. It is not an unfamiliar industry to us.

Don't forget that the other partners.... I'll give Enbridge as an example. They are probably the world leader in pipelines, but they are also invested heavily—$2 billion a couple of years ago, I think—in sustainable renewable energy, such as solar panels, hydro off the coast of France, wind turbines, etc. They have a whole division of green energy, because that's the way you have to shift in this world of technology.

At the same time, I have to point out that these other forms of energy, as far as I know, produce only electricity. Look at what's happening to Australia. It got itself into trouble because it went too green.

Anyway, we were on to other enterprises, not just this project.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

We are moving on to Mr. Hardie.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

How much time do I have?

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

We are on the clock, I think. You have six minutes, if we have enough.... No, you don't. It's 4:26, so how about I give you two minutes?

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

If you give me two minutes, that would be great.

Did any of you consult with the groups? I understand there were about 130 of them that opposed the northern gateway pipeline. Did you enter into a dialogue or a discussion with them to try to connect the dots and resolve whatever difficulties they were having with the project?

4:25 p.m.

Coordinator, Aboriginal Equity Partners

Dale Swampy

We identified 52 communities that were along the right-of-way. The application included a radius of 80 kilometres. Originally, the National Energy Board used a 50-kilometre radius, but we decided to use an 80-kilometre radius. When we did the 80-kilometre radius, there were 35 communities that had reserve lands within that region.

We had 86 communities, including those 35, that expressed interest in being consulted. At some point in 2011 or 2012, as we were moving forward towards this equity offer, we decided that we would finalize a group within that radius, the 35, plus we consulted with the other 51 communities and asked them what the impact was, since they were far removed from the area. We got answers back from several of them, and we accepted another 17 communities, I think, and said that....

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

With respect, there were obviously people in your broader community who were opposed to this. What was the nature of the consultation? What kind of dialogue did you have with them to try to get them on side?

4:25 p.m.

Coordinator, Aboriginal Equity Partners

Dale Swampy

Throughout our consultation, we never had any formal letters. We never had any formal BCRs from any communities that actually opposed the project.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Okay.

4:25 p.m.

Coordinator, Aboriginal Equity Partners

Dale Swampy

We had verbal communications from some of them that they didn't want to be consulted on it, because they didn't feel their community supported a project like this.

When we talk about proper consultation, we talk about informing the communities about the projects. When you talk about land use studies, for example.... This is a greenfield project. The communities out there had never experienced or seen an oil pipeline, so there was no oil pipeline guideline within their land use planning for them to be able to follow that pattern. We had to inform them. We had to teach them about what oil pipelines are all about, what oil use is all about, and why Canadian society would benefit from this project.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much to our witnesses. Your testimony was very valuable, and we appreciate it very much.

Before I suspend for the other witnesses, given the fact that on our calendar we put in the supplementary estimates for November 9, and to replace the meeting that we cancelled, we need to make a calendar change. I can do it, if I have unanimous consent to make those changes to our calendar. The deadline for amendments would be November 23, and clause-by-clause would be on November 28.

4:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

We will suspend for a minute to allow our other witnesses to come to the table.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you all very much for joining us. I see we have a full table. I'm going to ask everybody quickly, starting with Margaret, to introduce themselves and whoever is going to be the spokesperson for the group.

4:35 p.m.

Margaret Rosling General Counsel, Nisga'a Lisims Government

Thank you very much.

Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Margaret Rosling, I am general counsel to Nisga'a Nation.

4:35 p.m.

Corinne McKay Secretary-Treasurer, Nisga'a Lisims Government

[Witness speaks in Nisga'a]

My Nisga'a name is Bilaam Neekhl, which, translated, means “Pearly Fin”, and my English name is Corinne McKay. I'm the secretary-treasurer of the Nisga'a Lisims Government.

Good afternoon.

4:35 p.m.

Eva Clayton President, Nisga'a Lisims Government

Good afternoon. Thank you, Madam Chair.

My name is Eva Clayton, president for the Nisga'a Nation.

4:35 p.m.

Brian Tait Chairperson, Nisga'a Lisims Government

Good afternoon.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My name is Brian Tait. I'm executive chair for the Nisga'a Lisims Government.

4:35 p.m.

Collier Azak Chief Executive Officer, Nisga'a Lisims Government

Good afternoon.

My name is Collier Azak. I am the chief executive officer for the Nisga'a Lisims Government.

It's good to be here.

4:35 p.m.

Calvin Helin Chairman and President, Chiefs Council, Eagle Spirit Energy

Good afternoon.

My name is Calvin Helin. I'm the chairman and president of Eagle Spirit Energy.

4:35 p.m.

Gary Alexcee Deputy Chief, Chiefs Council, Eagle Spirit Energy

Good afternoon.

My name is Gary Alexcee, hereditary chief of the Nisga'a Nation for the community of Gingolx. I'm the vice-chair with the B.C. first nations council of the energy corridor group.

4:35 p.m.

Chief Isaac Laboucan-Avirom Chief, Chiefs Council, Eagle Spirit Energy

[Witness speaks in Cree]

My name is Chief Isaac Laboucan-Avirom of the the Woodland Cree First Nation. I am also deputy grand chief of Treaty 8 Alberta and grand chief of the Kee Tas Kee Now Tribal Council.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Welcome. Thank you all very much for being here with us this afternoon.

You know the procedures.

I guess we're going to start with Ms. Clayton, as the president.

Would you like to start off?

November 2nd, 2017 / 4:35 p.m.

President, Nisga'a Lisims Government

Eva Clayton

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First of all, before I begin, I would like to acknowledge the traditional territories of the Algonquin first nations.

We appreciate the committee inviting us to speak with you today about the Nisga'a Nation's position on Bill C-48. You've heard my team's introductions.

As you are all no doubt aware, the Nisga'a treaty was the first treaty with indigenous peoples in Canada, and perhaps in the world, to fully set out and constitutionally protect our right to self-government and the authority to make laws. Our treaty area covers 26,000 square kilometres of our traditional territory, the Nass area in northwestern British Columbia and we own approximately 2,000 square kilometres of land in fee simple, known as Nisga'a Lands, shown in purple on the Nass area map that you have before you.

When our treaty came into force on May 11, 2000, after more than 113 years of struggle, the Indian Act ceased to apply to us, and for the first time our nation had the recognized legal and constitutional authority to conduct our own affairs. Our treaty includes detailed environmental assessment and protection provisions applying to the entire Nass area, which has opened the door for the joint economic initiatives in the development of our natural resources. It is in the context of seeking respect for our modern treaty that we come before you today to express our concern about Bill C-48.

The details of the proposed moratorium were announced late last November after what can only be described as a general overview of various options for the geographic content, geographic extent of a potential ban on oil tanker traffic, the type of product and vessel that may be covered by the ban, and potential opportunities for enhanced ocean protection initiatives.

In the weeks that preceded the introduction of Bill C-48, we urged that the moratorium not be enforced before further consultation took place and that the moratorium should not cover our treaty area.

Much to our surprise, Bill C-48 was introduced before we had been offered an opportunity to review the detailed approach that the government decided to take, nor were we able to comment on the implications of the proposed legislation on the terms and shared objectives of our treaty even though the area subject to the moratorium includes all of Nisga'a Lands, all of the Nass area, and all coastal areas of our treaty. This lack of engagement with us and the failure to assess the implications of our treaty is contrary to the expectations of the assessment of modern treaty implications, a process set out in the 2015 cabinet directive on the federal approach to modern treaty implementation.

Clearly, engagement on this issue fell well short of what would be expected between treaty partners. The Nisga'a Nation does not support the imposition of a moratorium that would apply to areas subject to our treaty, because Bill C-48 flies in the face of the principles of self-determination and environmental management that lie at the heart of the Nisga'a treaty.

We aspire to become a prosperous and self-sustaining nation that can provide meaningful economic opportunities for our people. This aspiration is reflected in our treaty, which sets out the parties' shared commitment to reduce the Nisga'a Nation's reliance on federal transfers over time. The Nisga'a Nation takes this goal very seriously. However, it stands to be undermined by Bill C-48.

Our future prosperity and the ability of our people to enjoy a better quality of life requires the creation of an economic base in the Nass area that meets the requirement of our treaty. This is the first priority of our government.

In the 17 years since our treaty came into effect, we have successfully negotiated many environmentally sound agreements in the mining, hydroelectric, and liquefied natural gas sectors. We were the first indigenous nation to conclude an agreement with TransCanada to run a natural gas pipeline over 200 kilometres of treaty lands.