Transport Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2017

[Calvin Helin]

Thank you very much.

I would like to answer that with the question that our chiefs from the communities have put to us. How is crude oil such a bad thing in our traditional territory but not such a bad thing out of Vancouver harbour or the Salish Sea, which is up for designation as a world heritage site of some kind? It doesn't make any sense. It's arbitrary. It doesn't make sense that you can ship oil everywhere in Canada but in an area that is our traditional territory.

I am Tsimshian. I'm from Lax Kw'alaams. John is my brother. We undertook this project because we are concerned about the environment. We have developed an ocean protection plan that meets a standard that's much higher than what is being proposed for shipping bitumen out of Vancouver harbour. We wouldn't support that. We would support something that had specific differences from what is being proposed and was a much higher standard.

The communities that are supporting our project felt that what we had come up with as an environmental model had met a standard that was a balance and that protected the environment everywhere—not just in the ocean but on the land, too.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Helin, would you, then, ship bitumen out of a port if you developed it?

[Calvin Helin]

Why would—

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I saw somebody nod. A simple yes would be fine.

[Calvin Helin]

Yes. Why would you limit it?

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Okay. That's all I was asking.

[Calvin Helin]

Isaac has just asked to answer that as well.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Is the answer yes or no?

[Isaac Laboucan-Avirom]

Yes. My answer would be yes, as well. We are already taking in oil from Saudi Arabia and Algeria. There are oil rigs on the east coast of Newfoundland. What's the difference between the east coast and the west coast? Yes, I absolutely would, because I also feel, like Calvin, that we are in a state of.... We have innovation; we have new technologies. I believe we could really have a high technical safety prevention measure.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Do you agree that bitumen is very different from crude oil?

[Isaac Laboucan-Avirom]

Yes.

[Calvin Helin]

I would agree that it's very different from crude oil. That being said, why is this government prepared to let it be shipped out of Vancouver?

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I have another question for you. Are you contemplating another pipeline? As I understand it, the Eagle Spirit Energy plan was to put in another pipeline, but following a different corridor than the Enbridge line would have followed. Is that the case now?

[Calvin Helin]

Yes. You will see all that information detailed in the brief that will be coming to you.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Okay. Would the port for that be up in the territory, not in Prince Rupert?

[Calvin Helin]

It would be across from Lax Kw'alaams and Grassy Point. There—if you're talking about environmental and ocean safety—you are 10 minutes from open water, versus Kinder Morgan's project. First of all, they can use only Aframax tanker ships, which are limited to about 500,000 barrels. They have to allow them in, because they have to go under two separate bridges, and they can do so, I believe, only in certain tides. There is a very complex archipelago that they have to transit out of, so they are five hours to open water. If you want to talk environmental safety on the ocean—

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Sorry, Mr. Helin, I have to cut you off.

Mr. Cullen is the next questioner.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Chair. Thanks for the indulgence of moving time around.

Welcome. It's so nice to see everybody on this truly north coast day here in Ottawa. I hope folks feel welcome. I apologize for not being here. I had a speech I was obligated to give in the House. It's nice to be among so many familiar and friendly faces.

Where to start? I think this is the one-year anniversary of the government's new coastal safety strategy. As it is right now, there is a lot of traffic that moves up and down the north coast through your territories, through Lax Kw'alaams and Nisga'a waters.

Maybe I'll start with President Clayton and go to Mr. Helin or Mr. Alexcee afterwards. What's the status? From a gold standard to silver, bronze, or something below, how good do you think the safety conditions are right now in event of mishaps or tragedies that go on in the north coast waters? I don't know if Ms. Clayton or others might have an opinion on that. What's the state of affairs currently?

[Eva Clayton]

With regard to safety on the north coast, we don't hear about the mishaps on the north coast, about anything other than the oil spills, but there are no mishaps on the north coast.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Corrine, do you want to...?

[Corinne McKay]

Thank you, and it's good to see you again.

We have a concern. We were happy to see the announcement for the $1.5 billion last year for oceans protection. However, we do not feel that we are adequately protected, which is one of the reasons we took the position to ensure that the provisions of our treaty would be considered. If there is going to be a project in our region, we want to make sure that the highest environmental protections are taken, the standards are taken. We would insist on a rapid response capability.

Our colleague from Eagle Spirit Energy referenced the challenges that we have with ships in distress. We don't have the capability to respond. With regard to the diesel spill in Bella Bella, we were as concerned about that as the local people were, because we knew the devastation it would cause to their marine harvest. We know there are no protections that are adequate right now and—

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

We're a year beyond the announcement that the coast would become better protected than it was. I'm getting the sense from your comments that you're not yet at all satisfied.

I don't know if Mr. Helin would have a similar....

[Calvin Helin]

Yes. We had experts address this extensively, and we have virtually no protections in the north right now, virtually nothing. If you want to deal effectively with an oil spill, you have to have assets on the ground right away.

In Alaska, they have assets situated all the way out the route that the tankers are transiting. There are big barges with equipment. They have a fishing vessel owner program. They have, I believe, 1,100 fishermen on a list of who can help to clean up the spill who they can phone immediately. They have state-of-the-art technology requiring all of the technology associated with cleaning anything up, but the most important thing about that model is that it's prevention-centred.

People used to think in terms of cleaning up spills and being organized to clean up spills, but the new state-of-the-art models in the world now are prevention-oriented so that you never have a spill.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

They get it all before it happens. Thank you.

I have a question about consultation, maybe for President Clayton.

I get the sense, having talked with the Nisga'a over the years, that the federal government has no idea, really, what to do with a modern treaty. Is what is exposed here in the creation of this bill, whether you're for it or against it in principle, that gap between the words about meaningful consultation, the commitments to the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, and then the reality that we see on the ground—again, moving aside the principles of the legislation itself and what it intends to do, whether you agree or disagree with it?

On those words and promises of meaningful consultation, how's the government faring right now in terms of the Nisga'a's and Lax Kw'alaams' perspective?

[Eva Clayton]

For this particular project of the government, you're quite right that there has been no meaningful consultation, as set out in accordance with the Nisga'a treaty. It has exposed the responsibilities of all of our treaty partners, in particular, Canada, with consulting the Nisga'a Nation on this particular ban that is going to severely impact the nation's ability to become economically prosperous.

If I may—