Evidence of meeting #85 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was line.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sal Iannello  General Manager, Infrastructure and Development Services, City of Welland
Stephen Craik  Director, Water Quality Assurance and Environment, EPCOR Utilities Inc.
Marie-Claude Guérin  Specialist in drinking water, Public Works, Ville de Trois-Rivières
Michèle Prévost  Professor, École Polytechnique de Montréal and Industrial Research Chair, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada, As an Individual

4:35 p.m.

General Manager, Infrastructure and Development Services, City of Welland

Sal Iannello

I used to be in charge of all the water and waste-water plants for the region. Years ago, I went to work for then Mayor Badawey in the City of Port Colborne as the city engineer. I switched from one tier to the other, so I know both sides of the coin in this area.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

You currently work for the lower-tier government.

4:35 p.m.

General Manager, Infrastructure and Development Services, City of Welland

Sal Iannello

That's correct.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Is that Port Colborne?

4:35 p.m.

General Manager, Infrastructure and Development Services, City of Welland

Sal Iannello

No, now I'm in Welland.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Okay.

The regional government takes care of water and waste-water treatment, does it not?

4:35 p.m.

General Manager, Infrastructure and Development Services, City of Welland

Sal Iannello

That's correct.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Does the City of Welland have anything to do with the water and waste-water systems, or is that entirely the regional government's responsibility?

4:40 p.m.

General Manager, Infrastructure and Development Services, City of Welland

Sal Iannello

The way our two tiers work is one of the unusual ones—I think there are only a couple left in Ontario—where the region owns all the water treatment plants, pumping stations, storage, and major trunk mains that transport water across municipal lines. From the first valve off those larger lines, it becomes a municipal responsibility, so we have our own water mains and we bill. The meters are ours, so we bill the citizen, and the region bills us through its larger systems.

That's the reason the region contributed to our corrosion control plan and to the decision to help fund private-side replacements. For the Welland plant alone, if I recall the numbers correctly, it was almost $2 million to upgrade the plant to provide corrosion control, and then a $200,000 annual expense for the chemicals and the maintenance of those systems.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

I assume you have a 10-year asset management plan for the City of Welland as well. How big is that plan, and what component of that is water and waste-water capital investments?

4:40 p.m.

General Manager, Infrastructure and Development Services, City of Welland

Sal Iannello

The water and waste-water component is substantial. We are talking tens of millions of dollars.

One of our two major focuses is replacement of very old mains. We have 80-year-old cast iron mains in many parts of the older city. That's where the replacement of lead services on the private side would also occur. The other major thing is that the City of Port Colborne had a very large problem with combined sewer overflows because of the combined system on the sewage side, so a large amount of money, almost all of the infrastructure money we received from the federal and provincial levels, has gone toward separating the sewer system to avoid dumping into the Welland River, which is our receiver, and which is—

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much, Mr. Iannello.

Now we move to Mr. Aubin, for three minutes.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My next question goes to Ms. Guérin.

You mentioned the samples that were taken in Trois-Rivières in 2013, and you mentioned others that were done on the lead and copper pipes. Can you tell us whether copper poses a particular problem, apart from the fact that the joints are likely made from lead?

4:40 p.m.

Specialist in drinking water, Public Works, Ville de Trois-Rivières

Marie-Claude Guérin

We have noticed that the retention time of copper in the pipes of residences that are a long way from the street is much longer. So we have to increase the pH of the solutions. Adding an anti-corrosion treatment and increasing the pH makes the water less aggressive. So we can solve some of the problems that way.

The places where we found copper were in water pipes serving houses further away. So the copper level was higher on the private side. The pipes belonging to the city of Trois-Rivières do not have that problem. Only the residents really noticed it. We came to an agreement whereby they would agree to change a part of their water line. Not a lot of people lived in the residences in question and the copper stayed in the lines for a long time before the water got to them. It is also a problem for people who live a long way from the street or from the municipal system.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Is it more a corrosion problem? Do copper pipes cause as serious a health problem?

4:40 p.m.

Specialist in drinking water, Public Works, Ville de Trois-Rivières

Marie-Claude Guérin

The situation is not the same in terms of health. Copper pipes do not pose as serious a problem.

But we still became involved as soon as we saw copper content that was outside the standard because it is also a little unpleasant. It produces water with a very blue colour, which is a concern to people. When you are not used to that shade—copper is blue-green—taking a bath or drinking water that looks like the sea in warm countries can cause alarm. However, the health standards are different.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

I am just going to throw out a suggestion that came to me a few minutes ago. It is much the same as the one my colleague Ben Lobb came up with.

As all the witnesses have said, and as we all agree, lead is first and foremost a public health problem. The public does not object to a certain number of reportable diseases being identified. That goes without saying; they affect everyone's health.

Given that the greatest difficulty seems to be coming from the private sector, I wonder whether we should at least require that a mention of the type of pipes installed be mentioned in the contracts for house sales.

4:40 p.m.

Specialist in drinking water, Public Works, Ville de Trois-Rivières

Marie-Claude Guérin

A part of that information is already in registries and municipal plans. The type of pipe used in a house and the date when it was built are mentioned.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Can a buyer go to the municipality to get that information if the seller does not tell the buyer himself?

4:40 p.m.

Specialist in drinking water, Public Works, Ville de Trois-Rivières

Marie-Claude Guérin

I do not know if that is the case. But I can tell you that, internally, we can check the overall condition of the water pipes installed in the street. However, we cannot determine the condition of the pipes on any given property.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Okay.

Does anyone else want to deal with the same subject, public health?

4:45 p.m.

Professor, École Polytechnique de Montréal and Industrial Research Chair, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada, As an Individual

Michèle Prévost

My experience is a little different from the previous witness. In the six municipalities, we worked very hard on one major challenge, that of locating the service entrances. We do not know where the lead is. In some cases, we do not know either in the private areas or the public ones. That is because the documentation is very old. In my opinion, the idea of getting the information when you buy a house is very positive. However, both owners and renters would have to have access to the information.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

Sorry, Mr. Aubin, we're over your time.

Thank you very much to all of our witnesses. We appreciate very much your taking the time to provide us with sufficient information as we do this study.

We will suspend for a moment and then resume shortly.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, October 25, 2017, we are examining Bill C-344, an act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit). For those of you who were on the committee before, we dealt with this issue before under our current Minister of Immigration. He was hosting it. It subsequently was approved with two amendments from this committee. Then Mr. Hussen ended up being the minister and couldn't carry the bill any longer. Mr. Sangha picked it up. At that time it was Bill C-227. It is now Bill C-344.

Mr. Sangha would you like to speak to the bill, please?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ramesh Sangha Liberal Brampton Centre, ON

Madam Chair, it's my pleasure to come before the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity.

My private member's bill, Bill C-344, is an act to amend section 20 of the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act to introduce community benefits. This committee has already done an extensive study on a similar bill, Bill C-227, which could not go through due to administrative reasons, as the chair has already mentioned. You conducted your study on Bill C-227 and suggested a few amendments. Now I am here with my private member's bill, Bill C-344, with your suggested amendments.

Let me congratulate you all for the great work done on the previous bill, Bill C-227.

Community benefit agreements, CBAs, are tangible socio-economic opportunities for neighbourhoods, local communities, and the environmental benefits that result from federal government projects across Canada. This includes local job creation, apprenticeships, education, and affordable housing. By giving more power to the minister of public services and procurement, Bill C-344 would make sure that the minister plays a leadership role towards the betterment of communities. This bill would empower the minister to ultimately create a platform to minimize delays and produce flexibility for communities' infrastructure development.

CBAs would require bidders on the proposal to provide information on the community benefits that the project would provide. CBAs would enable the minister to formulate agreements between developers and local community groups. CBAs would create a foundation to encourage local communities to form partnerships with developers and address local challenges.

My private member's bill, Bill C-344, would require the minister to report back to Parliament every year on what community benefits have been enacted.

We notice that the federal investment funds are making significant improvements in all the ridings across Canada, even in Brampton. We have federal funds of approximately $95 million for Züm bus rapid transit and $69 million for stormwater management infrastructure for the Peel region. Similarly, every riding across Canada is getting funding for federal projects. It is obvious that if CBAs were tied to these federal investments, communities would thrive.

Bill C-344 would allow for comprehensive consultation with communities across Canada, consequently strengthening the local community infrastructure for the residents. Moreover, various business groups and organizations support the idea of community benefit agreements. The Toronto board of trade, the Vancouver board of trade, and the Montreal board of trade have already recognized community benefit agreements as a strong economic policy and an optimal way to confront youth unemployment.

Furthermore, a joint report from Mowat Centre and the Atkinson Foundation found that community benefit agreements have the ability to adopt a better environment for impoverished areas.

Ontario has already enacted CBAs, and other provinces such as Nova Scotia, Quebec, and Manitoba are also following suit. Moreover, other countries, including the United States and the United Kingdom, have already implemented CBAs in their respective infrastructure funds. Ultimately, CBAs would create the foundation for communities to achieve their fair share of federal infrastructure investments. Furthermore, it's about ensuring that future federal projects involving construction, maintenance, or repair would result in community benefits for millions of Canadians from coast to coast to coast.

I also put it to the committee that besides the tangible benefits of CBAs, they are a vehicle that would create an opportunity for the pursuit of dignity, and build the inner-being infrastructure of Canadians.

That is my submission. Thank you very much, and I'm prepared to answer any questions.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much, Mr. Sangha. We appreciate that.

Are there any questions?

Mr. Hardie.