Transport Committee on March 19th, 2018

[Capt(N) (Ret'd) Paul Bender]

I don't think so.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Okay. That was my only question. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Badawey.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I do want to thank the witnesses for coming out today, particularly you, Captain Bender, for really taking the next steps with respect to what we're trying to do.

I mentioned earlier that this is extremely important to this committee. I think what's most important is that we take to the next level what's already been established through existing regulations, as well as what continues to be established by folks like Captain Bender, and solidify a pragmatic process or processes with our partners to ensure that the desires of Captain Bender and many other folks, not just here in Canada but around the world, are once again established.

Madam Chair, I would put forward a recommendation for some direction with respect to the next steps and to have the analysts come back with a report that of course would be established with an expected dialogue with the partners, such as the ministries. I say “ministries” because we've heard from Parks, Environment, Transport, Defence, Veterans Affairs, the Coast Guard, and Fisheries and Oceans, and from Captain Bender himself and the folks who I'm sure you've worked with, Captain, and other partners who would be interested in taking this to the next level. If we can have a report come back with that dialogue being established by the analysts, hopefully we can then make recommendations that in fact will fill the gaps and, once again, take this to the next level.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you, Mr. Badawey.

How is our time doing here? Do we still have a chance to give Ms. Sansoucy the last two minutes? Okay.

You have two minutes, but it has to be a very tight two minutes.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

That's perfect. Thank you.

I have a quick question for you, Mr. White.

Do you have an estimate of the number of lives lost and shipwrecks that lie on the bottom of the oceans and that have no legal protection? Do you have that number?

[Patrick White]

Captain Bender, with his research, is certainly the best person to ask. I know that he was saying before that there were nine Canadian wrecks, and that up to 1,200 lives had been lost. These are just Canadian wrecks. I couldn't necessarily comment on the broader issue on the ocean.

One thing that's unique to military wrecks is that the latitudinal and longitudinal positions of the vessels have been recorded. Even something as accessible as Wikipedia has a list of U-boats, Canadian merchant navy ships, and Royal Canadian naval vessels that have sunk in Canadian waters, with their latitude and longitude and the dates they sank. There is a lot of publicly available information.

I don't know if Captain Bender wants to add anything about the number of wrecks that may exist.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

I would like to ask a sub-question.

During the first hour of the meeting, we were told that the departments didn't have specific inventories. But from your research, you can tell us that there are 900 shipwrecks and 1,200 lives lost.

When I was told earlier that there were no specific inventories or year-to-year data, I didn't understand why. How is it that we don't have this precise data?

[Capt(N) (Ret'd) Paul Bender]

We most certainly do have specific numbers. There are indeed wrecks of nine Canadian warships in Canadian territorial waters and wrecks of 10 Canadian flag merchant ships in Canadian territorial waters. At the moment, no legislation regulates the access of persons with ill intent to take souvenirs from these ships. Because of the exemption of warships under international maritime law, there has to be national law to deal with this issue. This is what France has done and this is what Britain has done, to the extent that both France and Britain, founding nations of Canada, have agreed...and in the case of the French, they have done it. They have extended their existing laws to Canadian ships. The Government of Canada, and Canadians as a whole, have done nothing.

My concern from the beginning, and it will continue for as long as I live, is for those young Canadian sailors whose lives were taken from them and who now lie at the bottom of the oceans entombed in the ships they were serving in. I don't care about the ships themselves. I am very concerned about the fact that there is no respect and no regard paid to these young people, as there is in cemeteries generally. With respect to legislation with regard to cemeteries, in Ontario there is only one law, and that's the Cemeteries Act. Basically it says to keep off, and if you don't, we'll report you to the Department of Veterans Affairs. There's one law; that's it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you so much, Captain Bender, for this information today.

I think based on the conversation and comments we've heard, if the analysts go back, I think they have been as captured and engaged and concerned with this issue as all of us, we'll work together to put together a report. If any members have any further thinking through this process or afterthoughts for the analysts—of course, that's part of what they're doing while they're in the process of coming up with some specific recommendations—those can be given to the analysts.

Captain Bender, I can tell you that we will not want to let you down. All of us will work to try to see if we can help you move forward with a mission that shouldn't have to be yours, even though clearly you're the one who's assuming leadership. We have a great committee here. We work well together. We will work well with our analysts to see what we come up with. We will be back in touch. Hopefully we can invite you back when we have that report and share that with you as well.

[Capt(N) (Ret'd) Paul Bender]

Thank you, Madam.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I have two budgets here for the committee to adopt. One is for $800. The other is for $18,000 for the study on automated vehicles.

If we adopt these today, even though we may change our minds, I'm going to suggest that on Wednesday, when we do the supplementary and interim estimates, we hold back 15 minutes at the end of that meeting so that even if we adopt the budget and then decide to make a change, we just don't end up spending the money.

Is that okay with the committee members?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

So I'll save 15 minutes for committee business. We have both ministers coming on Wednesday, the minister of infrastructure as well as the minister of transport. It will be a busy meeting.

Do I have everybody in favour of these two budget requests that are before us?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

That's carried. We can have a further discussion, a side discussion, on the automated vehicles as well. All right? Thank you very much.

Can we possibly get a group photo with Captain Bender, all of us? Wouldn't that be kind of nice?

Could we get a group photo with you, Captain Bender?

[Capt(N) (Ret'd) Paul Bender]

If you wish, Madam.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. White and your son can stay there too, please, and we'll stand behind you.

Before we take the photograph, I will adjourn.

The meeting is adjourned.