Transport Committee on Feb. 27th, 2020

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I think that the goal, and I mean this truthfully, is to work with provinces as well as municipalities. The way our integrated bilateral agreements are structured is that provinces talk to municipalities. They develop lists of projects and submit them to our department for review in different categories. I think there have been some challenges for municipalities and I've talked to the FCM.

The Federation of Canadian Municipalities has raised concerns that some of the projects are not making it to the project lists, or provinces may not be taking advantage of the opportunity of the infrastructure investments that are there. That is the reason why, if the money is not allocated by provinces by 2022, we would be going directly to municipalities.

That is not the goal. The goal is that we all work together, because otherwise it's a wasted opportunity. When you look at the opportunity to drive GDP, to create jobs, to make transformative change, you see that it's the investments in infrastructure, especially when you have low interest rates and a growing economy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Since I'm from Quebec, I think it is important for Quebec to always get its share of federal infrastructure investments. Clearly, the province has not gone after its share of the funding because, during the first phase of the infrastructure plan, we see that Quebec received only 12% of the amounts invested in infrastructure, even though it is home to 23% of the population.

Your mandate letter states the following: “Your focus must be on the successful, timely delivery of our... investments...”. That is an excerpt, but it's one of the things it says.

Is this an admission of failure in terms of your ability to fund infrastructure?

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I think we work quite well with Quebec. In public transit, 50% of the funds are already earmarked.

As far as Quebec is concerned, the amounts are sometimes a little disappointing, because we only pay for infrastructure projects when we receive the receipts from Quebec. Sometimes, projects are already completed. So it may not seem like we have spent any money, but things are definitely moving forward.

I think there's great potential. I recently spoke to the minister—

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you for your answer, Ms. McKenna.

Minister, I'm trying to wrap my mind around the fact that Quebec has received only 12% of the funding right now, when we should be receiving at least 23%. That does not seem to me to be a great job or a great achievement. What are you going to do to ensure that we receive our fair share of infrastructure funding in Quebec?

What we are hearing from the municipalities and the Government of Quebec is that you are setting a lot of conditions. It is a form of blackmail when it is our money, and the federal government imposes all its conditions. So we have to agree and negotiate. That means we don't get our money. How are you going to ensure that Quebec receives its money?

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

The money is there for Quebec. We have had discussions and negotiations regarding the program. Quebec, the provinces and the municipalities wanted to see investments in public transit, in green infrastructure, in communities and in recreation.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, but that really doesn't answer my question, Minister.

Let me go on by telling you that we have a solution for you that would allow the money to be used very quickly. We propose that you transfer the money as a lump sum, with no strings attached, to the Government of Quebec.

Could you do that?

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

No, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

We have a program and we have results. We have to have—

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

You have answered my question, and the answer is no, period.

I have other questions about a project that seems to be a major part of your mandate letter. It's about “supporting the Newfoundland-Labrador fixed transportation link.”

Basically, the idea is to have an electric transportation line. In fact, the Muskrat Falls project cost more than double than it was originally supposed to cost, and was backed by the federal government. The government decided to provide a loan guarantee to that project. So we are the ones who may end up paying the bill.

The province of Newfoundland is pretty much bankrupt right now. While Hydro-Québec has never received a cent from the federal government to help with its projects, its competitor is being funded.

Don't you have enough on your plate without adding to it? In fact, the result in Muskrat Falls is tragic and horrible.

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Personally, I am here to work with all the provinces and territories. I met with Minister Bonnardel this week. He told me about the link between Labrador and Quebec. I believe it is connected to highway 138. So I think you want to get the required money.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

That is what I am trying to understand.

In fact, the project mentioned in your document, for the time being, is not a link between Labrador and Quebec, but a link between Labrador and New Brunswick that would go across the Gulf of St. Lawrence, the open sea. That will cost a fortune, and the Muskrat Falls project has already cost a fortune.

If Newfoundland has to go bankrupt, will Canada also go bankrupt? We are the ones paying for that, and that worries me a great deal, especially since Hydro-Québec does not receive any money from the federal government.

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I don't really have an answer. I am here because Canadians want us to invest in infrastructure, whether it is in Newfoundland, Quebec or anywhere else in the country.

I think Canada is better when we work together. Investments create jobs and grow the economy. We see that investments make a big difference.

Take the Samuel De Champlain Bridge in Quebec, which makes a big difference. I think you would be able to say that it's a good investment, correct?

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I wonder whether your government is controlling costs. A project that was supposed to cost $6 billion at the outset is now reaching $13 billion, and it is not even finished yet. It has just cost twice as much as it was supposed to cost, even though it is being approved for funding as such.

Why is it that we are not even monitoring the bottom line? At the end of the day, Quebeckers are the ones who will have to pay.

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I think we have to be very careful with taxpayers' money. That is why we have this program and why we have reports. We want the Auditor General to assess our program. That's why we want a national infrastructure assessment, to conclude that what we're doing is helping to grow our economy. That is going to put us in a good position 25 years from now.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

In fact, isn't this funding just political funding, not economic funding?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being with us today.

An important part of your mandate is the funding of public transit projects. As we all know, there are important transit priorities in communities across the country, things such as the LRT in Hamilton, Vancouver's Broadway and Langley SkyTrain expansions, and extensions to the blue and orange lines in Montreal. It's really positive to see that your government has committed funding to some of these projects. We're hopeful that more funding will be available for Hamilton and for the second stage of Vancouver's Broadway extension to UBC.

However, we've also heard concern about how federal funding is getting spent. With regard to the LRT here in Ottawa, the federal government has provided $762 million toward stage 1 and over $1 billion toward stage 2. We saw multiple delays during construction, and since it has opened, users have suffered constant delays, missing trains, and replacement buses. There are real concerns about how public-private partnerships are being used to build and manage transit systems such as Ottawa's LRT.

Are you concerned that handing over control to private corporations denies the accountability for service that transit users here in Ottawa deserve and expect?

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I know it has been hard for folks in Ottawa. I live here in Ottawa and I see the impacts.

Look, any project has to deliver on what it's supposed to deliver on, whether it's a private-public partnership or fully funded by levels of government. That's something that does concern me, and making sure that all levels of government are accountable for taxpayer dollars is extremely important.

That said, when you look at the infrastructure needs across the country, they're huge. We talked about one stream, disaster mitigation, with 10 times the interest, but that's across the board. The public transit projects that are getting proposed to me in your province are extremely significant.

We do need to look at opportunities to work with the private sector, but of course, being mindful of outcomes and making sure that when projects are built they deliver what was expected, and that they are done in a timely way and are mindful of taxpayer dollars.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Minister, when it comes to stage 2 of the LRT here in Ottawa and the billion-dollar commitment that the federal government has made, are you concerned by reports that the technical submission associated with the winning bid made by SNC-Lavalin was seriously flawed? Are you concerned that, by allowing corporations to undercut each other in the bidding process, we're going to be building infrastructure that is not up to the standards that Canadian citizens expect?

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I'm not going to talk about particular projects, but of course, we need to make sure, absolutely, that when projects are done they achieve the outcomes that are expected, and that they're done in a timely way and are done within the budget that is there. That is extremely important. That is something that I will be focused on. I think there are concerns in regard to Ottawa's LRT. That is fair, and as we reflect on how we move forward with infrastructure investments, we need to be delivering for Canadians, and all levels of government need to be working together to do that.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Is your government committed to creating a permanent fund for transit projects, and if so, what amount would this fund provide annually?

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

In my mandate letter, I'm tasked with creating a permanent fund, $3 billion per year from 2028 onward. That was actually received extremely positively by municipalities, because the infrastructure needs, in particular public transit needs, are great. Also, these are very long-term projects, and being able to plan in the longer term is extremely important.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

The Canada Infrastructure Bank is spending $20 million to privatize the water management system in Mapleton, Ontario. In its recent end-of-year report, the bank hailed the project as a pilot to demonstrate the potential of privatizing water in communities across Canada, yet what we've seen when this privatization has occurred in places such as Hamilton is that the cost of services goes up for citizens and the overall service delivery goes down.

Should public money through the Canada Infrastructure Bank be used to incentivize private corporations to take over the provision of vital services such as drinking water?

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

The Canada Infrastructure Bank is independent and it needs to look at opportunities, but if your overall question is whether we should be making sure that the drinking water is safe for Canadians, that's absolutely the case. This is a project they are looking at, but overall, the Infrastructure Bank is looking at a whole range of different projects so that we can expand our infrastructure dollars. The federal government simply does not have enough money, but whether a particular project is appropriate is something that the bank looks at very carefully.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Do I have time for one more question? Thanks very much.

I notice in your mandate letter that there's a commitment to electric buses, not just for public transit but also for school buses. What is the delivery pathway for those electric school buses going to be? How is the funding going to get to the school boards that manage those fleets?

Then, more broadly, could you speak to the fact that school boards across the country manage large portfolios of infrastructure and have opportunities to reduce greenhouse gas emissions? Many school boards have made climate emergency declarations. Is your government considering how to get infrastructure dollars to school boards in order to meet climate targets?