Transport Committee on March 11th, 2021

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Michael MacPherson]

It's a different motion. The one we received yesterday is on a different subject matter.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Clerk.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

My mistake.

Thanks, Mr. Clerk.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Mr. Rogers.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Mr. Chair, again the only thing I question about this motion is the time of two hours. I'd prefer that we amend the motion for the ministers to appear for one hour each, if that's possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Rogers. I'll take that as an amendment.

Members, are there any comments or questions from members on the amendment?

Seeing none, Mr. Clerk, could we take the vote on the amendment, please?

[The Clerk]

Sure.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0 )

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

We're now going to go to the main motion as amended.

(Motion as amended agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)

Thank you, Mr. Clerk.

We're now going to go back to our questioning.

Ms. Kusie, you have the floor.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Thank you, Chair. I will pass my time over to MP Kram, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Mr. Kram, the floor is yours.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions are for Ms. Skivsky of the NTCCC .

This committee heard on Tuesday from the Canadian Construction Association that one of the problems with the Canada Infrastructure Bank is that the funding buckets are not flexible enough and that this is leading to blockages in getting projects started.

I was wondering if this observation matches the experience of the NTCCC and whether Ms. Skivsky could share her thoughts on that.

[Sandra Skivsky]

I think I alluded to that in my comments.

There are certain types of projects, and they're usually the large-banner projects. They have a big impact but only on some of the construction industry. When you're looking at a recovery mode, you want projects of different sizes and types. They can't all be just roads, bridges, or energy infrastructure. Some of them have to be buildings. There are hospitals and community centres and schools and long-term care facilities. A lot of these other sorts of projects would fit in smaller communities and also spread the benefits to a larger segment of the construction industry, which would have a very good multiplier effect in terms of dollars spent on construction.

In terms of employment and improving communities, the benefit isn't just that immediate employment you see for trades contractors; it's also in the jobs and the economic benefits that accrue to those types of smaller projects in certain communities.

You need a balance of both. As I said, the long-term major projects are transformative in nature and they're needed. That's why we need that long planning horizon to be able to execute those as part of other things that go on.

The issue that we have is that over the years, there have been many announcements, but it has taken a long time before anything has hit the ground in terms of an active project.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

When it comes to the Canada Infrastructure Bank being of benefit to only certain types of construction firms and workers, besides the examples you listed, are there any other types of projects or types of funding buckets that would enable the Canada Infrastructure Bank to be more inclusive of your industry?

[Sandra Skivsky]

I would say they should look at projects that aren't necessarily in the billions in all cases, smaller-sized projects. Every community, different provinces and different areas have slightly different needs, so to say that this type versus that type, there are.... Heavy civil construction or horizontal construction is referred to, and vertical construction. A mix of both is really what's needed for a vital construction industry and vital economy. It's no good to build the road if there's nothing at the end of that road.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Very good.

I got the impression from past witnesses at this committee that the Canada Infrastructure Bank often tries to kill two or three birds with one stone. A project may have goals related to economic development, social or environmental benefits and so on. Can Ms. Skivsky provide any recommendations that she hasn't already regarding streamlining these goals to get these projects approved and started faster?

[Sandra Skivsky]

This is a two-way process. Some of the other speakers have touched on the case that the government should lay out goals and objectives and then use the bank to address those, and also to look for that bottom-up input into construction. There are so many different types of construction projects. If you're looking out east, out west or in the northern territories, everyone has a different need, so there has to be a balance of both.

It's got to be about the need of that community, how it meets the government's objectives and how we marry those two together. But if you just focus on multibillion dollar projects that are very specific, there's a benefit, but the point I was trying to get at is that it's sometimes the short-term requirements, the short-term needs. We're in a situation now where the industry is a little uncertain because there aren't those medium-sized and smaller projects out there that fit a wider audience, both in terms of construction and the economy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Ms. Skivsky, and Mr. Kram.

We're now going to move on to the Liberals.

Mr. Rogers, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses today for their varying perspectives on the Infrastructure Bank and the value of P3s.

The first question is about broadband infrastructure as a project and as infrastructure. I'm going to direct it to Ms. Skivsky and then Chief Gale.

We know that broadband infrastructure is no longer just a nice service to have, but something that's important to Canadians, especially during this pandemic. I've discovered that people are increasingly working from home and learning remotely and need access to reliable broadband. While broadband projects create immediate jobs and economic activity, the key here is that Canadians now don't have access to important sectors of the economy because of the lack of broadband. Those sectors can only be accessed digitally.

Can P3s help to address the needs across the country to have reliable networks where people can work and learn? This question is for Ms. Skivsky and Chief Gale.

[Sandra Skivsky]

I'll give you a personal anecdote. Three years ago I lived right in central Etobicoke and I couldn't get reliable Internet because of where I was located vis-à-vis their hub. That an eye-opener for me.

Yes, broadband is not a “nice to have”, but a fundamental pillar of our economy and will continue to be so.

I don't have an immediate answer as to where it needs to go, because you'd have to map it out and see where the gaps were, obviously in rural and remote areas. But it is one of those things that is a catalyzer of other economic growth. If you put the broadband in, that's not the be all and end all of it; what's really important is what it allows that community to access and develop from that point onward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Ms. Skivsky.

Chief Gale.

[Chief Sharleen Gale]

More or less, the government hasn't really addressed the gap for indigenous communities. Right now we need more planning money, not just money for hardware. We need capacity and planning money directly on the ground in the communities where these issues are happening, because currently the funding is really scarce.

I think about our members when we were starting to go through the pandemic. A lot of them are in remote communities, where access to Internet isn't good. We had to be creative and find ways to bring that technology to them so they could participate in our meetings.

In my hometown of Fort Nelson First Nation, we have to pay for data, which is really challenging and very expensive. We're very thankful that Northwestel got a huge grant to enable us to get unlimited Internet.

I want to offer my colleague Niilo a chance to add to that.

[Niilo Edwards, Executive Director, First Nations Major Projects Coalition]

Thanks, Chief Gale.

The only thing I would add for the committee's consideration is that we've been approached by our members in northern Saskatchewan and northern Manitoba, who want to take advantage of the government's recent announcement about broadband. As Chief Gale alluded to, that announcement is particularly focused on the hardware, the bricks and mortar of broadband. What these communities are looking for is the ability to plan and deliver these projects in communities. Right now there isn't even money available for feasibility studies or project planning.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Edwards.

Mr. Rogers.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Dr. Riordan, many experts have suggested that infrastructure investments are one of the best ways to spur economic activity, especially during economic downturns. Our government has already invested billions of dollars across the country.

Can you speak to the ways that P3 models can help to make the most of our public dollars?

[Dr. Ryan Riordan]

I'd be happy to.

I've noticed a lot of the discussion has been about rates of return. I think one of the ways to think about P3 infrastructure investments is that public dollars are not inexhaustible. While the rate of return for public dollars is perhaps lower, we can get more projects done. We encourage economic growth and jobs by getting more projects done.

The other thing I would note is that while public funding is certainly less expensive, the private sector is particularly good at identifying projects that are the most promising. Combining different sources of funding, accepting the fact that public funds are not inexhaustible and allowing the private sector to help guide the capital to the most productive uses of that capital lead to public-private partnerships that could increase economic growth.