Transport Committee on April 13th, 2021

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

I am not having much luck with you this evening, since you are not able to give me the answers I am looking for.

[Karen Hogan]

I apologize for that.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

That's okay.

Could you share your comments with the committee on the measures taken by Transport Canada to implement speed restrictions for trains carrying dangerous goods?

[Karen Hogan]

Mr. El-Khoury, I don't think I'll make you like me any better by saying that we really did not study the transportation of dangerous goods. However, we do appreciate any measure that increases safety. If slowing down trains is one of them, we will support it.

We did not look at the reasons and impacts of accidents in the transportation of dangerous goods. So it is difficult to have an evidence-based answer.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Hogan.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Ms. Hogan, and thank you, Mr. El-Khoury.

Once again, I'm going to ask for the committee's indulgence. Would the committee mind if I asked a quick question?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Ms. Hogan, you mentioned risk assessment and risk-based approaches.

In your audit or evaluation, did you look at activities not just within the railway, but beside the railway, activities that might impact residential areas, for example, complaints from residential areas, and consider to some extent the safety of health, environmental impacts, noise and vibration, and so on? Was there any examination of that?

[Karen Hogan]

I'm going to hand that question over to Dawn to see if those were factors that we would have considered or if they are factors that Transport Canada themselves consider when they do some of their risk assessments. I'll ask Dawn to elaborate on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Ms. Campbell.

[Dawn Campbell]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Yes, the Auditor General is correct. We did not look specifically at the complaints.

What I can add, however, is that as the Auditor General mentioned, there are different kinds of inspections. The reactive inspections would be an opportunity for the department to look into a specific complaint such as you've identified.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Ms. Campbell and Ms. Hogan.

Members, that concludes our first hour.

Ms. Hogan, Ms. Marsolais and Ms. Campbell, thank you for your attendance here today. It was very productive. We're looking forward to that being part of the report that the analysts come back with.

Members, thank you for the great questions, involvement and interventions by all of you.

With that, I will take this opportunity to excuse the three witnesses and take a short suspension to get everybody all set for the second hour.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

For the second hour, we have, from the Canadian National Railway Company, Tom Brown, the assistant vice-president of safety, whom I'll be going to first for five minutes. He is followed by, from the Canadian Pacific Railway, Kyle Mulligan, chief engineer; and from the Railway Association of Canada, Marc Brazeau, president and CEO.

Mr. Brown, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Chair, before we go to Mr. Brown, could I raise a point of order with you?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Sure you can.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'm a little confused by the way today's meeting is structured. I don't think you'll be surprised by this.

At the outset of the meeting, you mentioned that this meeting was as per a motion of this committee, but I don't recall any motion of this committee that invited the two gentlemen that we have with us as witnesses this hour. I'm sure their testimony is very interesting and I certainly have questions I would like to ask them, but my question is really around process. You mentioned off the top that this meeting was also part of a study on rail safety. I'm a bit confused because, while a study on rail safety is a high priority for me and for the residents of northwest B.C., I wasn't aware that we had yet embarked on a full study.

Perhaps we could deal with these two issues separately and as expeditiously as possible, and then we could move on to hearing from the gentlemen who've made time in their day to be with us.

The first one is that I would like to bring forward a motion which I provided notice of previously.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Let me deal with two things.

With respect to the witnesses, which witnesses are you referring to?

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'm referring to Mr. Mulligan and Mr. Brown who are representing the railways. I don't recall a motion of this committee inviting them as witnesses. We passed a motion inviting the minister to speak with us for an hour on the topic of rail safety—an invitation he declined. We invited the Auditor General to appear for an hour on the topic and she graciously appeared today for an hour to answer our questions.

I'm just a little bit confused about how witnesses are invited. Obviously, the gentlemen who are with us today have important information on rail safety, but if we're going to study the topic of rail safety, which I very much want to do, there are others who I believe the committee should hear from, notably rail workers, independent experts and rail communities.

As I mentioned, I put a motion on notice previously regarding a study of rail safety and I would like to bring that forward at this time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

There are three points, Mr. Bachrach. I'll make it quick, so I don't waste the time of the witnesses or the members.

First off, with respect to the minister, the minister had just attended our committee two meetings ago on the main estimates. There was full opportunity for members of the committee to actually discuss a lot of the issues, not just about the main estimates, but also about these issues that you raise.

The second point with respect to witnesses who come to committee, they are both invited as well as requested. It has been the tradition of the committee that when someone does request to participate as part of a study, we allow that to happen. These two witnesses did request to participate.

Third, with respect to your motion, you have every opportunity to bring your motion up. As has been the tradition of this committee, you'll have that opportunity when your time comes with respect to having the floor.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Chair, we weren't notified of a request to appear that came from the two witnesses we're hearing from today. Is it normal practice for the committee to advise members or at least advise the vice-chairs?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Mr. Bachrach, it's not necessarily. The clerk was notified and with that, the clerk put them on the agenda.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'm not sure what to say. It seems like unusual operating procedures for a committee. Perhaps it requires us to revisit the routine motions and at least gain some clarity around how we're going to operate together as a committee. Up until now, the witnesses have appeared at the invitation of the committee and notice has been provided to committee members about witnesses who wish to appear. There have been discussions among the vice-chairs.

Mostly I'm just seeking clarity as to how we're going to operate. I think everyone on the committee would agree that if we're going to study an issue, we should hear from various perspectives. That's very much my desire on this topic.

With that, I'll hand it back to you. When it's my turn, I'll bring my motion forward. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach. I appreciate that.

Just going to your point, yes, we can revisit the routine motions and give more clarity to that. Again, it's always been tradition and habit, not just with this committee, but any committee I've belonged to, that if somebody requests to participate.... That's happened. It's happened within this session where the clerk has received a request to come as a witness and we have allowed them. As you mentioned, and correctly so, anyone and everyone with the background of whatever we're studying can come and participate. We actually encourage—not discourage—that.

I'll go to the second question.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, go ahead.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Actually, on the same point of order, I would just like to add, for the record, that I am just as surprised as my colleague Mr. Bachrach. I would also like to express my disappointment that the Minister has refused to appear today.

I do have questions for both witnesses and I look forward to hearing their answers. However, in terms of procedure, I think it is important in the future for all members of the committee to be informed when requests to appear are made. I am not making this a housekeeping motion for the time being. It may be necessary for the operation of the committee, but for now this is a personal request.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

Ms. Kusie, do you have a question or a comment?