Transport Committee on May 4th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Members, it's my pleasure to call this meeting to order.

Welcome, each and every one of you, to meeting number 30 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so that you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few points to follow. First off, members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either the floor, English or French.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the directives from the Board of Internal Economy regarding mask and health protocols.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled, as normal, by the proceedings and verification officer. All comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the very best we can to maintain the order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

Members, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on October 29, 2020, the committee will now continue its study of targeted infrastructure investments.

It's my pleasure to welcome and introduce our witnesses today. First off, between 6:30 p.m. and 7:30 p.m., we will be hearing from the Honourable Maryam Monsef, Minister of Rural Economic Development; Éric Dagenais, senior assistant deputy minister in the spectrum and telecommunications sector at the Department of Industry; and Ms. Kelly Gillis, deputy minister of infrastructure and communities at the Office of Infrastructure of Canada.

Welcome, Kelly, once again. You've been here so much, I'm going to call you a new member of the committee.

We also welcome Alison O'Leary, assistant deputy minister of program operations, communities and rural economic development, at the Office of Infrastructure of Canada.

From 7:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m., we will hear from the Honourable Senator Frances Lankin; Mr. Sean Strickland, executive director of Canada’s Building Trades Unions; and Mr. Craig Stewart, vice-president of federal affairs at the Insurance Bureau of Canada.

With that, welcome to all of you.

I will now move to the Honourable Maryam Monsef for her opening remarks.

Maryam, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Maryam Monsef, Liberal, Minister of Rural Economic Development]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Hello, colleagues. Boozhoo. Aaniin. As-salaam alaikum. I'm on Michi Saagiig Nishnaabeg territory and I'm speaking from my basement in Peterborough—Kawartha. I'm grateful for the study you're doing and the opportunity to speak with you today about infrastructure accessibility and its contribution to the overall success of our communities.

I know that this year has been a really difficult one for everybody on my screen, and for your families and your teams, and I know that you know that it has been incredibly difficult for Canadians. The pandemic has disproportionately affected women and those who were already vulnerable, such as low-wage workers, young people and racialized Canadians. Like my parliamentary secretary, Gudie Hutchings, I want to salute everybody on the front lines of the fight against COVID, particularly our friends and colleagues from Newfoundland and Labrador who are coming into Ontario to help us with this difficult and virulent third wave.

The pandemic has reminded us of how vital our connections are.

Bridges, broadband, roads, waterways and community centres connect us, and we're stronger when we're connected to the people and the services that matter to us. COVID has magnified gaps in services and in the infrastructure available for specific populations, including in rural communities. Our government has been working to address infrastructure gaps in every community in this country since we formed government, and our infrastructure plan is working. Five years in, we are 40% of the way through this 12-year plan, and we have delivered over 40% of the funding available.

The investing in Canada infrastructure program includes over $180 billion in investments; 3,400 projects have been approved so far, including more than 2,000 projects just this past fiscal year during the pandemic.

Let me thank my officials and my team who, like you, are working from home. Their service delivery standards have not missed a beat. Within 20 to 60 business days, we moved these important projects forward for communities. I am so grateful to get to work with them. There have been 3,400 approved so far, with more than 2,000 in this past fiscal year, and with over 1,000 projects in this committee's 13 ridings.

In rural communities, more than $3.2 billion has been invested under the rural and northern stream, which is specifically dedicated to supporting rural communities and making investments in broadband, water, roads and community centres across the country. I want to thank the Liberal rural caucus for advocating for this separate stream and for bringing back the rural economic development secretariat through their advocacy.

This is a big step forward for Canadians living in rural, remote and indigenous communities.

It's a big step forward. These investments create jobs, more than 100,000 jobs each year, and improve our quality of life. The result is that more Canadians have access to high-speed Internet. More have access to clean air and clean water. Our communities are safer, more resilient and more inclusive.

These investments are important in rural communities.

They're important. These are strategic investments that create growth, fight climate change and build inclusive communities. They're more important now than ever.

You saw that the federal gas tax fund—which we intend to rename, by the way, the Canada community-building fund—is making a difference in communities across the country. To help ease the crunch of the pandemic, as per requests from municipal leaders, in 2020 we delivered the whole year's $2.2 billion in gas tax fund to municipalities.

More needs to be done. Budget 2021 includes our plans to conquer COVID, get Canadians back to work and build back better. That includes broadband as well as social infrastructure like housing and child care and supports for sectors hit hardest by COVID such as tourism.

There is a $6.2 billion investment already in place for broadband, and Budget 2021 added an additional $1 billion to this important fund. There are investments to go ahead with our national infrastructure survey. Of course, we're proposing to double last year's gas tax fund payment, just as we did in June 2020, and to provide the full 2021-22 amounts in one payment instead of the usual two installments.

Mr. Chair, I see your hand is up. Is that a signal that my time is up?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

That's the one-minute mark. When I throw the hand up, it's the one-minute mark. You have about 20 seconds.

[Maryam Monsef, Liberal, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Perfect.

We are committed to completing the remaining 60% of the infrastructure program and to adapting to the evolving needs, as we have through the COVID-19 resilience stream that is providing improved ventilation in public buildings to reduce the risk of aerosol transmission of COVID.

We'll work with this group. We look forward to your study. Of course, we will work together to build a more inclusive, fairer society for all.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Minister Monsef. Well done.

We'll now move on to our first round of questions. First up are the Conservatives, and Ms. Kusie for six minutes.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you so much, Minister, for taking the time to be here with us again today. I'm sure it's a very busy time for you, given that we just had the federal budget and, of course, there are just so many files that touch upon the rural economic development file.

I was very fortunate to sit on the House procedures committee with your predecessor, Bernadette, who of course went on to the cabinet in the Fisheries and Oceans capacity. There's indeed certainly quite a legacy to follow there.

I appreciate you taking the time to come here today and to answer the questions of the committee. We are several meetings into this study now after having completed previous studies, one which I believe touches upon this study—the Canada Infrastructure Bank study.

I guess my first question is just a result of some of the struggles and disappointments that we have seen, having undertaken that study in addition to this study. There certainly have been very interesting witnesses, but in some of the patterns we've seen in the discussion of infrastructure projects, for example, we see the reannouncing of the same funding over the past number of years, because it just takes so long to get any tangible action on an issue, for example. We've had conversations about that, and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it. We get concerned that a lot of the announcements in the budget are just a result of the pending election and not a sincere effort to address the concerns of communities.

As well, we've heard in testimony about a lot of problems in the coordination with other levels of government. In my position of shadow minister for transport, I certainly have seen this. For example, in a conversation I had with the Ontario transportation minister, Minister Mulroney, she indicated problems with some federal commitments being carried through after provincial commitments had been made, resulting in some holdups for infrastructure. We just think that it's very important to walk the talk when it comes to putting your money where your mouth is.

As well, we had concerns about private sector investment in Canadian projects. For example, your government of course was forced to purchase the Trans Mountain pipeline project when it was very difficult to secure private funding, if not impossible. We saw this again with Energy East and, of course, with the cancellation of the Kitimat pipeline project just a month ago. I also feel that the Teck project that never came to fruition was a result of the intended off-putting of your government in an effort to have it not result in a viable project.

We've also seen this with the A2A railway. I certainly hope that this won't be the case. Being a member of Parliament from Alberta, I do look forward to this as a potential throughway for our natural resources, since they have been stymied in so many other regards. That's very concerning for me.

Another piece related to your file is the sustainable internal trade plan for Canada. We've seen a lot of interprovincial trade barriers, and I think that as the official opposition we would really look forward to seeing them broken down, in an effort to really allow the economy to evolve internally and domestically in one piece. The hope is to restore investor confidence in Canada, which has been broken, I believe, as a result of the examples I gave previously.

I certainly imagine that this must be a lot for you to manage and oversee, given the breadth of your file, and especially given your role as Minister for Women and Gender Equality and that your government is so interested in protecting the chief of staff to the Prime Minister rather than the women and the men of the Canadian Armed Forces. Certainly, I know that in your role you will advocate for the Prime Minister's chief of staff to come forward to the defence committee and testify. I know your government certainly claims to stand up for women. I saw you in action at Women Deliver and how strong you were there. They must also take accountability for their failure to act on sexual misconduct allegations against General Vance three years ago.

With all of that, Minister, I would just ask and hope that your government will finally step forward and take action on these things I have brought forward to you today. I look forward to your addressing that.

Thank you.

[Maryam Monsef, Liberal, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you.

Minister Monsef, unfortunately, the time is up.

Ms. Kusie, thank you for the statement.

We're now going to move on to our first set of questions. We're moving to the Liberals. Hopefully they can give you some time to respond to some of Ms. Kusie's statements.

We have first up Mr. El-Khoury, who will be splitting his time with Mr. Iacono.

Mr. El-Khoury, you can start off. You both have the floor for six minutes.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to welcome the witnesses.

I'm particularly pleased that the Honourable Minister Monsef has joined us this evening to share ideas, take questions and provide answers. The presence of Minister Monsef, who is known for her hard work, adds to the prestige of our work.

Madam Minister, we've heard recommendations that Canada would benefit from a streamlined national strategy to bridge the digital divide and provide access to reliable and affordable high-speed Internet connections to all regions.

Can you talk about our government's approach and why there are so many different programs?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Go ahead, Minister.

[Maryam Monsef, Liberal, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you for the question and for your hard work, Mr. El-Khoury.

I appreciate the advocacy you've done for your communities since you were elected. I asked my officials, my team, to look it up. There are over 70 infrastructure projects in your riding that you have made happen. They're creating jobs, and they're improving the quality of life for your community. Thank you for that work and your warm welcome.

Certainly COVID has exacerbated existing gaps in our country, particularly the digital divide. Since we formed government back in 2015, we have been able to put forward investments to connect 1.7 million Canadians, and we started adding more to that in our new mandate with the universal broadband fund. It's recently been topped up with another $1 billion through Budget 2021. The broadband fund has a separate stream for indigenous cellular gap projects. Another stream is the rapid response. Shovels go in the ground this construction season, and they end sometime near the end of this year, as close to the end of this year as possible. Another pot of funds is for core projects that take longer than a year.

The goal is to connect every single Canadian to this essential service, and yes, there are different funds with CRTC. The connect to innovate program existed before the universal broadband fund. Indigenous Services Canada as well as the regional economic development folks also help with that process.

The good news is that there's a lot of funding available, more than ever in Canada's history, to connect everybody to high-speed Internet. Yes, there are many cooks in this kitchen, but we need these cooks in the kitchen because each of them has a different piece of this program. That's it. We heard the importance of coordination. Through the universal broadband fund, my department has stepped up to be the lead coordinator amongst all of these cooks to make sure that the process is smoother for applicants and the results are better for Canadians.

To address MP Kusie's question, yes, this is all a lot of work. Thankfully, we have great teams who work with us. Do you know who else works really hard? The moms out there who right now don't have access to high-speed Internet and are trying to figure out how to look after their kids, how to do their work and how to stay safe in this very difficult time. Who else works hard? Farmers, who, like my colleague mentioned earlier, are afraid of droughts and other challenges that come their way in addition to COVID.

Canadians work hard, and it is an honour to work hard on their behalf.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Minister.

You have the floor, Mr. Iacono.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to welcome Madam Minister.

With the 2021 budget introduced by our government, the universal broadband fund will amount to $2.75 billion.

However, the former Conservative government, which focused on saving money by limiting infrastructure spending, invested only $6 billion of the $9 billion set out for 2010. This stands in stark contrast to our government, which is putting a significant amount of money into various funds and programs for infrastructure projects.

Moreover, starting in 2021, an additional $1 billion will be invested over six years to support a more rapid rollout of broadband projects.

Madam Minister, how can you give us the assurance that the projects approved by our government aren't given only to big telecommunications companies?

[Maryam Monsef, Liberal, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Yes, thank you so much, Angelo, and particularly for your advocacy on behalf of seniors with the seniors caucus. That work has been invaluable.

The previous government focused on short-term investments. We're focusing on long-term infrastructure investments such as our 12-year, $180-plus billion program. We're also mindful that access to high-speed Internet is about health and safety, and about economic development. We're spending because it's a smart investment in our communities, and we can't afford to leave rural and smaller communities behind.

In the connect to innovate program, we saw one third of our federal investments go to larger ISPs, one third to smaller ISPs and another one third to indigenous Internet service providers or partners. We will continue to ensure that there is a diversity of partners in our projects to meet the diverse needs across the country.

I wonder, Éric, if there's anything you'd like to add to this.

Éric Dagenais and his team hustle hard behind the scenes.

[Éric Dagenais, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum and Telecommunications Sector, Department of Industry]

No, thank you, Minister.

Mr. Chair, I think the minister has covered it. I have nothing to add. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Wonderful. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Iacono, you have about 25 seconds.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Madam Minister, I want to briefly discuss the government's goal of connecting 98% of Canadians by 2026 and 100% of Canadians by 2030.

Why is more time needed to connect the remaining 2% of Canadians?

[Maryam Monsef, Liberal, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

The goal is to connect as many households as quickly as possible and funds are available and we're approving projects as quickly as we can. This is a big, beautiful country and there are some places across the country that are harder to connect than others. They may require low-earth orbit satellites, for example, or will just take longer to connect. That's what we're accounting for in those timelines, but the goal is to connect as many households to this essential service as quickly as possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Iacono, as well as Mr. El-Khoury.

We're now going to move on to the Bloc, with Mr. Barsalou-Duval for six minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Madam Minister, for joining us today. I think that this marks the second time, at least as part of similar studies, that we've had the opportunity to meet with ministers. Whether you're responding to one of my questions or to another member's question, perhaps you can shed some light on the specific structure of your department and on your exact responsibilities.

My questions for you include an issue that significantly affects the gas tax and rural municipalities. That's your file. I've had the opportunity to ask your colleague, Ms. McKenna, Minister of Infrastructure and Communities, this question several times. I was quite disappointed with her response, but perhaps you'll be more encouraging.

Your government recently decided to tighten up the criteria for the federal gas tax fund. As a result, many municipalities have been unable to invest in their city halls, fire halls, garages and warehouses. For the big cities, this isn't a major issue, since they have other options. That said, I think that a number of those cities would have preferred to maintain the flexibility that they had in the past. The big cities have so many projects and are so large that they can invest the money in other places. However, for smaller municipalities, this creates an issue. These municipalities rarely have the luxury of being able to use the money received through the federal gas tax fund for anything else. Once the eligible work is complete, they can no longer use the money.

In the past, when municipalities needed money to invest in their city halls, fire halls, warehouses or garages, they could invest the money wherever they wanted. Often, in small municipalities, there isn't a huge amount of infrastructure. The amount is quite limited. When an urgent need arises in one place, the money must be used there. Sadly, sometimes, the municipalities simply can't use the money. It goes back into the public purse, and the municipalities lose track of it.

I guess that you're aware of this, but smaller municipalities often have much greater financial challenges than some of the larger municipalities. Smaller municipalities have a fairly limited tax base.

Do you consider that the restrictions imposed by your government unfairly penalize small municipalities?

What are your thoughts as Minister of Rural Economic Development?

[Maryam Monsef, Liberal, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

I thank my colleague and I miss seeing his little one in the House of Commons.

I can assure my colleague that the gas tax is flexible and that the funds go directly to municipalities, who get to choose what is the best use of these very important, much-needed dollars. We actually stepped up and expedited the delivery of these dollars to municipalities last year and we'll do so again this year. I'll ask my wonderful deputy to comment on that. I will also say that eight out of ten dollars spent on COVID response have come from the federal government. We'll continue to be there for communities, for municipal leaders who are working so incredibly hard right now, to make sure that they get through this with whatever it takes, as long as it takes, as you've heard the Prime Minister say.

Deputy, is there anything you'd like to add about the fund formerly known as the gas tax fund?

[Kelly Gillis, Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada]

Thank you, Minister.

The federal gas tax fund, which is a fairly flexible program, includes 18 different project categories to invest in infrastructure needed by municipalities.

Municipalities can save it. It's something small municipalities appreciate. If there is a larger piece of infrastructure they'd like to invest in, they can save the infrastructure money from the gas tax one year and do that larger project the following year. It is an area that gets [Technical difficulty—Editor] the challenges you've mentioned.

The money does not return to the consolidated revenue fund. It is a transfer payment to the provinces and territories, which in turn flow that money to the municipalities based on the agreement we put in place with them in 2004. It is quite flexible, with 18 different categories of investment. From roads to bridges to water and sewer to broadband connectivity, there is a wide range of opportunities that municipalities can use. They determine the pace of investment. They determine, based on those 18 categories, what they want to invest in. Also, it pays 100%. There's no need to cost-share, and that's really important as well.

As the minister noted, normally in previous years—

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you.

I appreciate your input regarding the fact that the money doesn't go to waste, since it can be carried forward to another year. As you said, the municipalities greatly appreciate this program. I don't think that's the issue.

The question pertains more tothe restrictions imposed more recently. In the past, we said that the categories that you brought to our attention concerned priority projects. The administrative interpretation now is that the projects are no longer just priorities, but the only projects that can be funded.

In the past, people thought that money from Quebec, for example, could be used for other purposes. With the new restrictions, the money can no longer be used at all for other purposes, such as city halls, fire halls, garages and warehouses. This is causing a great deal of frustration in the municipalities.

I know that I often say the same thing. However, I think that, if I keep repeating myself, the message will eventually get through. That's why I wanted to emphasize this point.

On another note—

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you.

[Maryam Monsef, Liberal, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Mr. Chair, I just want to clarify that we have not changed, or created any restrictions with, these transfers. I want to get that on the record. We have not done that.