Evidence of meeting #5 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was billion.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Andy Fillmore Liberal Halifax, NS
Okay, great.
You began to make the segue there to the economy. You and I speak often about the fact that this infrastructure program is a chance, given its magnitude, not just to move the dial on the environment but also to move the dial on the economy and employment, and particularly now with COVID, even more so.
Can you go down that path a little bit and talk a bit about the economic impact as it relates to our recovery, and even beyond that, just in general about creating prosperity in our communities across the country?
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
I think that's really important.
We need to be making sure right now that we're creating good jobs, but also growing our economy.
Let's just take some statistics. I am someone who really cares about stats. In 2019 alone, if you look at the construction industry, you see it accounted for approximately 7% of Canada's GDP and employed about 1.7 million Canadians.
We know that infrastructure investments are a significant part of our economy and that every public investment of 1% of GDP in infrastructure boosts growth by 2.7%.
If you look at investments in traditional infrastructure, you see that an investment of $1 million generates between two and eight jobs, so that's water treatment facilities, bridges, storm sewers. When you go to clean infrastructure like public transit, more energy-efficient buildings, you find the payoff is even bigger, between five and 14 jobs for every million dollars spent.
I could talk about all the different projects that are creating jobs. The mayor of Brampton talked about the tens of thousands of jobs that will be created by the investment we made in flood mitigation in Brampton alone. If I think about all of these projects across the country creating good local jobs, I think it's a real opportunity.
We know that we need jobs. We're in the largest recession since the Great Depression and we have to make sure that we're creating good jobs for Canadians and building the cleaner, more inclusive future we want.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey
That ends the first session. I want to thank Minister McKenna for being here with us today. It was great work by all of you and great questions.
We're now going to suspend for a few minutes so we can change over to the next hour. I am expecting departmental officials.
With that, we will suspend for about three minutes.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey
Good afternoon, folks.
Welcome to the witnesses. It's great to have you out this afternoon at this meeting of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.
We are going to start the second hour with six minutes for Mr. Scheer.
Mr. Scheer, you have the floor.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK
Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the officials. I appreciate your time today.
I just want to point out a couple of things from the minister's comments.
I believe I heard her say that one of the reasons the Yonge extension couldn't be approved right now is that they don't know where the line is going to go. I just wanted to let you know that I found the line. It took about two seconds with a Google search for me to find the proposed route, and I'm happy to send that to the minister. Maybe that will speed up the approval process.
I want to clarify another one of the minister's responses to my colleague, Mr. Kram.
Premier Moe did send a letter just before the throne speech, in which he indicated that since March 1, only three projects had been approved. The official gave a different number. I'm just wondering if you could bring some clarity to that. Were there a whole bunch of new approvals done in the last few weeks?
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
For all of our approvals in each of our streams within the integrated bilateral agreements, we actually do post them online. It's available on our website.
For the integrated bilateral agreements, I have 25 projects that have been approved and announced—
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
I can ask some of the my officials to look at the exact dates. I don't have them in front of me right now. I do know that 25 have been approved and announced for $151,880,000, and so far there's been $14,000,691 claimed. That hasn't been since March 1, but it's been through the integrated bilateral agreements.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK
Right. And as you know, those agreements go back some time. I think the premier's point was that—
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
These are the IBAs for the $33 billion that we actually have active right now. It's our most recent program.
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
For the remaining ones that I did quote, some of them are from before. You're correct. They were from the first round of integrated bilateral agreements from the 2016 budget.
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
Those 25 are from the more recent one.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK
I believe the premier's point was that since March 1 there were 123 proposed and only three received approval. When we talk about a construction season in Saskatchewan that doesn't go too deep into the winter, I think that's the issue that was being highlighted.
I wanted to ask you a question. There have been numerous reports about trying to quantify the percentage of infrastructure dollars that go to what are traditionally considered actual infrastructure, such as types of roads, bridges, ports and water systems. Many analyses have shown that what is considered “social” infrastructure—spending on things that have traditionally not been included in the infrastructure envelope—may be worthwhile initiatives and may be filling needs, but usually have been captured in other areas. There's a sense that this government is trying to call a lot of things infrastructure and give it that label to give the sense that this type of spending does have a return on investment in terms of economic growth.
Does the department have any type of criteria that determines the different types of infrastructure spending it approves and that breaks down social versus what we might consider more traditional infrastructure projects?
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
Thank you for the question, Chair.
When we look at our programming right now, under the integrated bilateral agreements, where I would say the social type of infrastructure, which we have traditionally funded, is under the community, culture and recreation stream. It is an overall allocation, a national allocation of $1.3 billion. At this point, we have 155 projects that have been approved, for almost $400 million across the country.
Now we have just recently, because of the pandemic, created something called the COVID stream. I know that the minister briefly mentioned that, based in the $33 billion, provinces and territories can transfer up to 10% of their allocation. A couple of the eligible categories, such as retrofits and upgrades, as well as pandemic resiliency, do go into a broader definition of social infrastructure. Any buildings that are owned by provinces, territories or municipalities, such as hospitals, schools or long-term care facilities, would be eligible under that stream. Normally that's more under provincial or territorial jurisdiction, so we don't fund those types of infrastructures, but we do and we have for many years funded community, culture and recreation infrastructure.
The other streams are public transit, wastewater and renewable energy types of programming. As well, as in our rural and northern stream, we do have 18 different categories, but not in normal social infrastructure as you might be talking about right now. I hope that clarifies.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK
Thank you.
When the minister and the Prime Minister make claims about the effects on GDP, does the department do an analysis to determine whether or not there's the same type of benefit with social infrastructure spending as with more traditional infrastructure?
4:55 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
Mr. Chair, thank you for the question.
Within Infrastructure Canada, we use the macro accounts from Statistics Canada. That is the model for economic analysis and benefit that we use, and that is a standard methodology within the federal government.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Andy Fillmore Liberal Halifax, NS
Thanks very much, Chair. Thanks to the officials for being here with us today.
I'm wondering if you could tell us what the INFC, the Department of Infrastructure, is looking for in terms of detail for a project. What is the due diligence and rigour that is undertaken to release the funds before we can start to fund a project, in order to do this responsibly?