Transport Committee on Dec. 1st, 2020

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

In the air transportation regulations, it very specifically speaks to the refunds issue, yet the statement on vouchers says, “The law does not require airlines to include refund provisions in their tariffs for flights that are cancelled for reasons beyond their control.”

If you read the regulations, section 122, which Mr. Barsalou-Duval read earlier, it very clearly says:

Every tariff shall contain...(xii) refunds for services purchased but not used, whether in whole or in part, either as a result of the client’s unwillingness or inability to continue or the air carrier’s inability to provide the service for any reason

These seem to be in direct conflict with each other. How do you explain this?

[Scott Streiner]

The air transportation regulations in the section that you and your colleague referred to outline the areas or topics that must be addressed by an airline's tariff. They don't establish the minimum obligations. They don't establish what the terms are; they simply indicate that terms must be established in these areas. Therefore, they don't establish a minimum obligation to pay compensation or to pay refunds in situations beyond airlines' control, only that a tariff has to address those questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Streiner, and Mr. Bachrach.

We're now going to to our second round of five minutes each from Mr. Soroka of the Conservative Party, as well as Mr. El-Khoury from the Liberal Party, and we have two and a half minutes each for Mr. Barsalou-Duval of the Bloc and Mr. Bachrach of the NDP.

Mr. Soroka, for five minutes you have the floor.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm not trying to put words in Mr. Hanson's mouth but it sounds like if the federal government gives support to airlines, there will be a condition that they have to refund passengers their money if the passenger wants that. If that's the case, if there's going to be a time frame attached to that, how long will you give airlines to refund all passengers who have had their trips cancelled so that the airlines can comply with the conditions the federal government has set?

[Lawrence Hanson]

Yes, I think when we get to the point of the payment of refunds, there would certainly need to be some sort of approach for detailing the manner and timing in which they would be provided.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

But you don't have a time frame right now as to what that will look like. Is it still in its infancy?

[Lawrence Hanson]

I don't have a timeline. I think I will that say that a lot of people will be contacted individually. A lot of people, as you are probably aware, purchase their tickets through third-party vendors online, companies like Expedia and Travelocity, etc., but we would obviously be pushing for this to be done in a very timely fashion, because lengthy delays in getting refunds are not consistent with the idea of providing Canadians refunds that they're expecting.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

I recently held a Zoom call with several independent travel advisers. That association has over 1,200 members across Canada and each one of them owns or operates a small business. They are self-employed. Independent travel advisers work on 100% commission and have been hit very hard by COVID. Many in my riding do not qualify for existing CERB programs as well, so does the department have a plan in place to ensure that travel advisers won't be collateral damage from airline passengers getting refunded by airlines clawing back their commissions? Do you think that will be part of the conditions as well when you're negotiating or not?

[Lawrence Hanson]

That is a great question. It points out some of the challenges associated with this and the need to get it right, because, as you say, there is a potential spinoff consequence for travel agents who suddenly see a collapse in commissions as a result of a massive wave of air refunds.

What I can tell the member is that we are aware of this issue. We are discussing it with our colleagues at ISED who work more with the sector than we do. Obviously, I can't say what solution we will arrive at, but I can assure the member that it's very much on the radar.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Yes, it's very good to hear that you're at least aware of that and trying to work towards some kind of solution.

You also spoke about how there could be different types of conditions on travel. Currently we have face masks and temperature checking. Do you think that will now become a standard practice in airports? Is this just an anomaly, or will this continue after the COVID crisis is over?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Go ahead, Mr. Hanson.

[Aaron McCrorie]

If I may, Mr. Chair, perhaps I could take that question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Go ahead, Mr. McCrorie.

[Aaron McCrorie]

We're constantly reassessing the measures that we have put in place from a health point of view, and we're adapting them as we go along based on the latest health guidance that we get. Depending on how the pandemic plays out over the weeks and months to come, and how, for example, a vaccine testing regime is implemented, we may be able to move away from some of these measures as new measures come into place or as the pandemic comes under control, but I think the bottom line is that we have the flexibility to adapt to changing health conditions and respond to the changing health advice.

A good example is how our requirements around face masks have evolved over time. We have adjusted them from the initial requirements in the spring to more recent requirements based on the latest health guidance that has provided more flexibility for parents travelling with younger children when using face masks.

We will evolve over time based on the latest information.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Okay, that's quite interesting. It kind os sounds like a yes or a no. I know it's a hard decision to come forward right now.

I get a lot of residents with conspiracy theories about vaccinations and all of these kinds of stories. Do you think this will be a condition for travel where, if they do not take the vaccine, they will not be allowed to travel? Is there the potential for that?

Please alleviate my fears, because I have to deal with this on a regular basis.

[Aaron McCrorie]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, I missed the beginning part of the question, but I think it was if vaccination will be a standing requirement for travel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

That's correct.

[Aaron McCrorie]

Again, it's premature to know for sure. Our colleagues from Health Canada may have some views on that as well, but it's certainly, I would say, in the repertoire of tools that we can bring to bear to manage the health risk.

For example, we talked about testing looking at people coming into the country and if there would be a requirement for a test prior to departure. Would we be looking for proof of vaccination prior to people getting on an aircraft? Those are certainly all options we're looking at, but it's premature to make any declarations at this point in time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. McCrorie.

Thank you, Mr. Soroka.

We're now going to move on to Mr. El-Khoury for five minutes.

Mr. El-Khoury, the floor is yours.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses. Their being here with us is really important and useful to the committee.

We are in the middle of a really complicated and dangerous situation. The impact of the pandemic on the airline industry is unprecedented. Here, in Canada, we rely heavily on our airline industry, much more so than most other countries.

My first question is for Mr. Streiner.

Mr. Streiner, you explained the provisions of the Air Transportation Regulations regarding the obligation to refund—or not—customers. Could you tell us what happens in case of a force majeure? And can the pandemic be called a force majeure?

[Scott Streiner]

I thank the honourable member for his question.

I can't really answer that question, for one simple reason: as a quasi-judicial tribunal, we might have to deal with this issue. It's a matter of interpretation of the situation, the facts and the legislation. In order to maintain our impartiality, it's important to wait for the decision-making process before answering this important question.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Can you tell us how the pandemic has affected independent travel agents?

[Scott Streiner]

If this question is for me, I would say that travel agents aren't under federal jurisdiction. From what we've read in the media, they fall under provincial jurisdiction.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

If you had issued an order stipulating that the airlines had to refund customers, this would still have been legal, given the terms and conditions of service in the airlines' tariffs. I am thinking here of the provisions that apply in cases of a force majeure and the distinction made at the time of purchase between refundable and non-refundable tickets

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Mr. Streiner.