Transport Committee on March 21st, 2024

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

On my last question, Ms. Murray raised the climate implications of infrastructure investment. In your response to her, you brought up the climate lens. This was an interest of mine several years ago. My question is very specific to the topic that we were brought here today to discuss, which is road investments.

Have any federal highway expansion investments been subject to the climate lens?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I expect so, but we have the deputy minister here, who would be more familiar with the individual projects.

[Kelly Gillis]

Any particular project that went through ICIP would certainly be subject to the climate lens. Since then, we actually brought the climate lens directly into program eligibility. It's not a separate lens; it's actually part of eligibility of any particular program.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

However, ICIP is only one of many funding pools—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Deputy Minister.

[Kelly Gillis]

Well, all of the programs, such as DMAF, as you are aware, are all—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you both.

For the third round we will go to Dr. Lewis for five minutes.

I'm going to ask both the members who will be speaking last to keep their remarks to five minutes so that we can respect the minister's time.

Dr. Lewis, the floor is yours.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, your colleague Ms. Murray, in asking you a question, stated that climate compliance infrastructure is essential in what we fund. You agreed with that.

My question to you, Minister, is this: Are cars and the carbon emissions from them compatible with your climate-compliant infrastructural objectives?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

We have to recognize the reality in which we live.

Cars are a part of life, but we need to make sure that we're designing communities in ways that are going to facilitate the movement of people to the opportunities and the services that they need, preferably where infrastructure already exists.

Having told you about the importance of supporting a highway-twinning project in my own community, primarily for public safety and economic reasons, I recognize that it's possible to fund a project that would build a road that cars travel on without jeopardizing the climate objectives that we need to pursue through a suite of policy measures.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Okay. In your answer you said, “preferably where infrastructure already exists.”

I live in a rural community, Minister, and so do you. There are no subways or public transit per se in my community. Do you realize that rural communities need cars and need the expansion of infrastructure in order to meet their daily needs because of their vast terrain?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

When I say “infrastructure”, that includes where infrastructure already exists, and it includes an existing network of roads.

I live in a very small community, but we're supporting public transit. It's not through subway expansion in a community of 9,500 people, but with a small bus that's helping seniors, low-income families and Canadians living with disabilities access the service they need in their community.

I recognize that cars are essential for a lot of people in the communities where we live, but we can do more to create opportunities for people to use public transit and active transportation and to build walkable communities, while still recognizing that some people are going to need cars for some parts of their lives.

We can improve their ability to move through their communities in different ways if we make smart infrastructure investments going forward.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

That ties in with what Minister Guilbeault said. He stated that the network that currently exists, as you said, where infrastructure already exists, is “perfectly adequate”. You agree with that statement, essentially.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

No, and if I was ambiguous in my remarks, let me clarify them.

We fund roads and we believe there will be new road projects that will need and deserve federal funding in a number of instances, but the individual projects will differ based on the merits of a specific project. In my view, particularly when I'm focusing on where we're building housing, we're pursuing more density where services, infrastructure and opportunities exist, as opposed to urban sprawl. It's not only more sustainable; it's more economic. It reduces the cost of living and, for a lot of people who can live closer to their jobs, the grocery store, their friends and neighbours, it creates more livable communities.

They may still own cars and they may still travel between communities, but they may have other modes of transportation that they will be able to use if we adopt smart planning policies.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

With those smart planning policies, you're supporting what Mr. Guilbeault said, which was that the road network, as it exists now, “is perfectly adequate” because your policies—including these smart planning policies—will minimize people's use of cars and the expansion of roads, as you will be focusing on existing infrastructure.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

There will be some need to invest in road projects, but often we can find solutions within communities by encouraging density and proximity to services.

Again, two things can be true. We can invest in the twinning of a highway for public safety and economic reasons to make transportation more efficient, but we can also believe that if a person lives close to where they work and where their friends and neighbours are, we don't need to invest millions of dollars of Canadians' money to build out new water pipes and new roads because we can create opportunities where those water pipes and roads already exist.

We're not just going to be saving municipalities money; we're going to be saving Canadians money. They may not need to live as far away from their work, because they will have an opportunity to live in proximity to transit or very close to where their destination may be.

I don't agree with your characterization of my answer, but I would suggest that we can sometimes invest in roads for some reasons while we put the focus on creating opportunities for people to move throughout their communities by investing in public transit and focusing on density, particularly when it comes to housing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Thank you very much, Dr. Lewis.

Go ahead for five minutes, Mr. Iacono.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Good morning, Minister.

I'm going to speak to you in French because I know you've made considerable progress in learning the language.

Minister, would you please tell us about the investing in Canada infrastructure program and the ongoing support it provides for infrastructure projects across Canada?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Before I begin, I'd like to thank my colleague, who was my teacher during my first year on this committee. She encouraged me in my efforts to speak French. I couldn't speak a word of French at first, but now I can express myself in acceptable French and I want to practise it.

The infrastructure program is very important.

By investing in infrastructure, we've also expanded economic opportunities for Canadians and their families. That's very important because it also improves quality of life.

The quality of our environment also improves when we invest in green infrastructure and water treatment plants for communities. This is very important because it also affords more opportunities to use public transit. It also makes it possible to construct new buildings as well as recreational and cultural infrastructure that supports heritage.

When we make these kinds of investments, we improve quality of life, the environment and economic opportunities. We also create jobs for Canadians, and that's good for the entire country.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

So you agree that this has made life a lot easier for people and communities.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I agree with that.

It's simple. When we build housing, for example, it isn't just homes for families; it benefits the entire community. For example, my children use parks. My daughter, whose birthday is today, plays soccer in my community. It wouldn't be possible without recreational infrastructure.

Furthermore, when we invest in infrastructure, it's also a good thing for the people who build it. I went to school with some of the people who work in that field.

So it's a good thing for our economy, for Canadians' quality of life and for our environment, and it's a good social program. Every time we have an opportunity to build new infrastructure, we support the economy and improve Canadians' quality of life.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Minister, would you please tell us about the investments our government has previously made in public transit and about how important it is to establish a permanent public transit fund?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Investment in public transit is essential. The program we've just discussed provides for multi-billion-dollar investments in support of public transit systems in all provinces. The Canada Infrastructure Bank has invested $1.3 billion in Montreal's Réseau express métropolitain, or REM.

In the future, however, it will be essential for us to respect the municipalities' ability to establish long-term plans. That's why we'll be establishing permanent programs to support investment in public transit systems.

When we make a decade-long commitment, for example, that encourages communities to develop a long-term vision, safe in the knowledge that the government will be there to support them. They can thus establish plans not only for public transit, but also for housing and other infrastructure, such as schools, health systems and recreational infrastructure.

Long-term planning is very important and has to be taken into account if we want to make good investments. That was important for past investments, and it's very important that we also continue making investments in the future.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Iacono.

Minister, thank you for taking the time to appear before the committee today.

Before I suspend, please wish your daughter a happy birthday on behalf of all committee members.

This meeting will suspend in order to welcome Minister Rodriguez.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I call this meeting back to order.

Colleagues, for the second hour of our meeting today, we have appearing before us the Honourable Pablo Rodriguez, Minister of Transport. Thank you for being here, sir.

We are also joined by Arun Thangaraj, Deputy Minister of Transport. Welcome to you.

He is accompanied by Serge Bijimine, assistant deputy minister, policy; and Joshua LaRocque, director general, transportation infrastructure programs.

We're going to jump right into it, Minister, to ensure we get to all of the questions that the colleagues would like to ask.

The floor is yours for your opening remarks, sir.