Transport Committee on May 30th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 118 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, April 16, 2024, the committee is commencing its study of the Competition Act and air travel in northern, rural and remote communities.

Before we begin, I'd like to remind all members and other meeting participants in the room of the following important preventative measures.

To prevent disruptive and potentially harmful audio feedback incidents that can cause injuries, all in-person participants are reminded to keep their earpieces away from the microphones at all times.

As indicated in the communiqué from the Speaker to all members on Monday, April 29, the following measures have been taken to help prevent audio feedback incidents: All earpieces have been replaced by a model that greatly reduces the probability of audio feedback. These new earpieces are black in colour, whereas the former earpieces were gray. Please only use the approved black earpieces. By default, all unused earpieces will be unplugged at the start of the meeting. When you're not using your earpiece, please place it face down in the middle of the sticker for this purpose that you will find on the table as indicated. Please consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents.

The room layout has been adjusted to increase the distance between microphones and reduce the chance of feedback from an ambient earpiece. These measures are in place so that we can conduct our business without interruption and protect the health and safety of all participants, including our interpreters.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I'd like to inform all members that the witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

With that, colleagues, I'd like to now welcome our witnesses.

Appearing before us from Air North is Mr. Joseph Sparling, president, by video conference.

Welcome to you, sir.

From Canadian North Inc., we have Shelly De Caria, president and chief executive officer.

Welcome to you.

We also have Mr. Purich, who's not on my list. We are very much grateful for your presence here, sir.

From Northern Air Transport Association, we have Mr. Bernard Gervais, executive director, by video conference. Welcome to you, sir.

From the Town of Smithers, we have Gladys Atrill, mayor, by video conference. Welcome to you, Mayor.

Finally, we have Daniel Côté, president, Air Transport Committee, and Marie‑Dominique Giguère, project manager from the Union des municipalités du Québec.

Welcome to you both.

Mr. Sparling, please make your opening remarks. You have five minutes, sir.

[Joseph Sparling, President, Air North]

Good morning, and thanks for giving Air North, Yukon's airline, an opportunity to provide input to this standing committee.

My discussion will focus on market research, industry concentration, competitive opportunities for small airlines and domestic airfares.

Canada's a small market, ranking number two in size, but—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Mr. Sparling, my sincere apologies, sir.

I'm getting word from our interpreters that they would like to have your microphone raised somewhat so that they can hear you a little better.

[Joseph Sparling]

All right.

How's that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Okay. I'm getting the thumbs-up, sir.

If you'd like, you can restart or continue from where you left off.

[Joseph Sparling]

Okay.

Canada is a small market. We rank number two in size but 222 out of 232 in population, relative to the rest of the world. As well, 90% of our population lives in 10% of our land mass, roughly along the 49th parallel. The focus of my discussion is on the 10% who live in 90% of our land mass.

Our 2020 research showed that approximately 200 Canadian communities receive scheduled air service from about 20 different airlines. Only about a third of these communities are served by mainline carriers. About half have a population of less than 10,000, and almost 75% are served by just one airline. Of the approximately 300 scheduled domestic air routes in Canada, about 15% are competitive, with 5% served by competing mainline carriers, 9% served by competing mainline and regional carriers and 1% served by competing regional carriers.

All air routes in Canada were subject to economic regulation until 1987. Air Canada was government-owned until 1988. Economic protection in the north was relaxed in 1996. By 2005 Canada was fully deregulated. While deregulation has done great things for the majority of Canadian airline consumers, it's also led to a level of consolidation that may not have been anticipated.

Prior to deregulation, Canadian Pacific Air Lines operated from Vancouver, Pacific Western operated from Calgary, Transair operated from Winnipeg, Nordair and Quebecair operated from Montreal and Eastern Provincial operated from Halifax. All of these airlines provided regional services with modern large aircraft. They provided significant economic benefits to their regions.

In the post-deregulation environment, regional services have become consolidated and centralized, with many communities losing jet service in favour of turboprops and some communities losing service entirely.

This risk was acknowledged in the 2000 TRAN committee report dealing with the takeover of Canadian Airlines by Air Canada, with two of the 42 recommendations calling for mandatory interline and code-share agreements between all Canadian scheduled airlines. This would serve to level the playing field between small regional carriers and large network carriers by providing regional carriers with access to mainline networks and thus 100% of the market rather than just a portion of the market. This dynamic has been addressed through legislation in both the telecommunications industry and the railroad industry.

From a passenger standpoint, people who travel with two airlines that do not have an interline agreement travel on two different itineraries, resulting in a duplication of fees and taxes, an inability to check luggage to final destination and limited passenger protection or accommodation if flights are delayed or cancelled. These dynamics put regional community travellers at a distinct and needless disadvantage relative to other Canadians.

With respect to pricing, in the long run, airfares are more significantly determined by costs than by competition or greed. Competition is important, but it is only one factor in keeping airfares low. It can actually be counterproductive in a small market.

Our network is made up of regional turboprop routes and gateway jet routes. I'm sometimes asked why it costs almost twice as much to fly 500 miles from Whitehorse to Old Crow as it does to fly a thousand miles south from Whitehorse to Vancouver. We utilize 40-passenger, gravel-runway-capable turboprop aircraft on our north routes and jet aircraft with 120-plus seats on our gateway routes. The turboprops burn more fuel per seat to fly 500 miles than the jets burn per seat to fly a thousand miles. The price of fuel at our most northern turboprop stop is 47% higher than at our southernmost jet stop. Our total direct operating cost per seat for the north route to Old Crow is 137% higher than for the jet route to Vancouver.

Because our turboprop routes are multi-stop with diminishing payloads on each northern stop, and because cargo is unidirectional, our turboprop load factors are on average more than 10% lower than those on our jet routes. This, in combination with the direct operating cost differential, creates a per-passenger DOC differential of almost 200%. The sharing of overhead costs, which speaks to economist Erickson's observation in our paper, reduces the overhead burden and thus the airfares on our regional routes by almost 20%, leaving a net average fare differential of about 88%.

As a final note on pricing, our 2023 net percentage margin on our turboprop routes, where we have no competition, was less than on our jet routes, where we compete with both mainline carriers. Our overall margin for the year was less than 5%.

In closing, in order to improve service and air travel pricing for northern and other regional communities, we need funding to modernize regional routes and navigational infrastructure so that regional airlines can modernize their fleets and operate more efficiently. We also need regulation and/or policy that recognizes and protects the role of regional air carriers. As well, we need to better understand the cost and service challenges faced in regional air markets. We need to reconsider Canada's user-pay model, which does not reconcile with many, if not most, other countries.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sparling.

Next we'll go to Ms. De Caria. I believe I pronounced it correctly that time.

The floor is yours for your opening remarks. You have five minutes, please.

[Shelly De Caria, President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian North Inc.]

[Witness spoke in Inuktitut and provided the following text:]

Ullukut angayurqaat ammalu purtunirsauqatitit.

[Witness provided the following translation:]

Good afternoon, honourable Chair and esteemed members of the committee.

[English]

Thank you for the opportunity to speak today. My name is Shelly De Caria, and I'm the president and CEO of Canadian North. With me is Nick Purich, our chief financial officer.

For over 75 years, we have been providing essential air transportation services to 25 communities in the Northwest Territories, Nunavut and Nunavik, the northern region of Quebec.

Of those communities, 21 are isolated from the rest of the country and do not have road access. Air transportation is the only reliable year-round way to move people and access food and critical supplies, as well as medical and other vital services.

Access to safe and reliable air transportation services is literally a lifeline for these communities. As a 100% Inuit-owned company and as an Inuk myself, we truly understand the vital role air travel plays in these regions, and we are committed to ensuring that our services meet the needs of the communities we serve.

Operating an airline in the northern regions of Canada comes with unique challenges over and above those in the south. Extreme weather conditions, limited infrastructure and vast distances significantly increase operational costs. These factors make it difficult for any airline to maintain frequent and reliable service while keeping prices affordable.

The cost of providing air service in the north is inherently high. Fuel costs, maintenance and the need for specialized equipment to operate in harsh climates and from short gravel runways all contribute to the overall expenses.

We have also invested heavily in ensuring that our services are dependable even under challenging conditions. This includes maintaining a fleet capable of handling extreme weather and ensuring that our staff are trained to meet the unique demands of northern operations. On top of that, the lower passenger volumes compared to the southern routes mean that costs per passenger are higher. As a case in point, it is estimated that the total population of the 25 communities we serve is around 130,000, roughly the size of Kelowna, B.C., or Sherbrooke, Quebec.

While we continuously strive to optimize our operations and reduce costs where possible, the economic realities of northern aviation cannot be overlooked. It isn't just enough to bring in other airlines, which generally focus on the larger, easier communities. More than a decade ago, Air Canada and WestJet began offering flights on the Edmonton-to-Yellowknife route. They introduced increased competition, which initially resulted in lower airfares. These major carriers leveraged their larger networks and economies of scale to offer competitive prices, attracting passengers who were previously served by smaller regional airlines. However, it also led to the significant challenges for smaller regional airlines, including financial strain, service reductions and exits from the route, which in turn had complex and potentially negative long-term implications for market competition and community connectivity.

Do you remember those 25 communities I just spoke about? For years, our Yellowknife route helped subsidize those smaller, less profitable routes, which the other airlines refused to service.

While the challenges are significant, there are ways to improve the situation. We welcome the opportunity to work with the government and other stakeholders to explore solutions that can enhance air travel in the north. There are a few avenues that we potentially could collaborate on.

Government subsidies can help offset the high operational costs and make air travel more affordable for residents. There are similar programs in other essential services.

Enhancing airport infrastructure can improve service reliability and efficiency. Investments in better facilities and equipment would enable more frequent and reliable flights.

Regulatory adjustments that recognize the unique challenges of northern aviation could create a more favourable operating environment, encouraging both existing and new airlines to invest in the region.

There could be a system-wide cost review to understand how the user-pay model of aviation infrastructure funding in Canada impacts consumers.

We at Canadian North are committed to collaborating with the government, communities and other stakeholders to ensure that air travel in the north is not only viable but also thrives, supporting the economic and social well-being of all residents.

[Witness spoke in Inuktitut]

Thank you for your time and the opportunity to speak here today.

Honourable Chair and esteemed members, I am happy to answer any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Ms. De Caria, for your opening remarks.

Next we'll go to Mr. Gervais.

You have five minutes for your opening remarks. The floor is yours.

[Bernard Gervais, Executive Director, Northern Air Transport Association]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to sincerely thank the committee for inviting me to testify on this very important subject.

Since the end of January 2024, I've been the executive director of the Northern Air Transport Association of Canada, better known by the acronym NATA. I'd like to make it clear that I'm not an expert on the Competition Act nor am I an employee of any of our carriers. I serve our association. Indeed, several of our members will be testifying here—some have already done so—in the context of this study. You'll undoubtedly have the opportunity to hear the details and the realities they face.

The Northern Air Transport Association, or NATA, was formed 47 years ago to support the economic development of northern and remote Canada with safe and sustainable air transportation.

Northern air carriers are not the largest in Canada, but they provide an essential service to the largest proportion of Canada's landmass and to many communities that have no road access and/or are not served by mainline carriers.

NATA's mission is to represent northern and remote air carriers in the decision-making process affecting transportation in northern and remote regions of Canada. Our goals as an association are to promote a safe and effective northern and remote air transportation system, to advocate for northern and remote air transport positions, and to establish and maintain partnerships with industry, governments and other interested parties.

Our main objectives are twofold: to develop and cause to be adopted positions that increase the safety of northern air transportation and reflect the unique operating environment, and to develop and cause to be adopted positions that improve the economics, quality and delivery of northern air transportation, considering this particular environment.

NATA is a network of 81 members, comprising 33 carriers who are supported in their mission by 48 other members. Our 33 carriers own a total of over 650 aircraft, which is more than the combined number of aircraft owned by Air Canada, Jazz, WestJet and Porter.

I referred to NATA's mission and goals earlier, because it's essential to mention that our mission and goals are the common thread connecting all our members, whomever they may be. All of these are vital to the communities served by our members.

I'd also like to take a moment to mention that our 33 carriers hold a mix of operator certificates, including 13 air transport, 15 commuter and 29 air taxi, enabling them to meet a wide range of community needs.

Our members offer a wide range of services which, for many, would be considered essential. They form a network. It's an essential system which in itself is more than the sum of its parts.

When a bigger carrier goes into a hard-surfaced airport, connects with a smaller carrier's aircraft that ends up on a gravel runway or with a float-plane that lands on a lake, all these connecting points by same-minded members are essential for the citizens and end-users, either for medical reasons, for commodities or for other essential necessities.

While our members serve northern and remote communities with a mission of essential service, for them and their customers, they're subject to the same regulations and limitations as other carriers in the country. What's more, they face challenges not seen in the south, such as more complex access to maintenance, deficient weather services, the complexity of refuelling at some locations, runways in a state of disrepair or out-of-the-ordinary weather phenomena due to climate change.

A lot of money needs to be injected into the north, as the infrastructure is in dire need of modernization or revitalization. The user-pay system will not suffice for that, nor will any program not specifically aimed toward those needs.

Aviation is not a luxury: It's a necessity for thousands of Canadian citizens across vast swaths of provinces and territories. It's an essential mode of transportation that should be considered as such, especially in the regions we serve. When dozens of communities can only be reached by air, those vital services are their lifeline to the world, and it's everyone's duty to keep it and sustain it.

Merci. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Gervais.

Next we have Mayor Atrill.

The floor is yours. You have five minutes for your opening remarks, please.

[Gladys Atrill, Mayor, Town of Smithers]

Thank you very much.

First of all, I am grateful for this opportunity to appear. I'm in my home office on the unceded territory of the Wet'suwet'en First Nation and I'm grateful to be here.

I must say that I'm feeling a little daunted by the professionals who have come before, so I'm going to just speak about my community, the importance of air travel and why I think some regulation might help.

Smithers is a town of 5,400 people in central British Columbia. What has been said previously affects what I'm thinking about.

Our airport is very accessible. It's five minutes from downtown. It has a good runway of 7,500 feet that can land major aircraft, and has done so. It is a critical piece of the transportation that makes our community healthy.

Currently, Air Canada serves our airport. It's not the same every day. Some days there are two flights a day and some days there is one. We are really grateful for that service. Prepandemic, we had more service per day and we had a regional carrier, which was Central Mountain Air.

I'm reflecting on the circumstance of this community and why I think air transport, air access and fair pricing are so important to us. Before the pandemic, we were able to operate our airport like a business. There was enough traffic and enough money coming into the airport. I should say that the municipality owns it. We were able to consider it as a self-paying business.

Now, a couple of years out of the pandemic, we've returned to about 75% of prepandemic revenue and 85% of passengers. We're definitely still recovering. We've done the research to know that our airport is one of the lower-cost airports for aircraft to come into. We do what we can to be competitive.

Who uses our airport and why do we need it?

Like many other communities, it's used by residents for leisure travel, business travel, and medical and emergency travel. We have a solid business to the northwest of us, where industry uses the airport for shuttling. There's a good charter business that comes out of the airport.

Also, in the face of climate change and wildfires in the last few years, we have a wildfire base at the airport, and emergency aircraft can be staged there. We've actually been able to house people at the airport when there was a real shortage of accommodation for firefighters.

I would say that the airport is absolutely essential to the health of this community. We've done our part, as I've said, in keeping good investment in the airport, the taxiways and the terminal, etc. We've made good use of the funding that the federal government provides.

Just down the road from us—in northern terms, so people understand this, it's about a two-and-a-half-hour drive—is the Terrace-Kitimat airport that's served by two carriers, which are Air Canada and WestJet.

This is one of the keys, I think, in pricing fairness. I did a scan this morning of prices. Smithers is generally priced higher. It was random; I just picked days in the future. Smithers is generally priced higher than Terrace, and the air miles are very similar. If the air miles are similar and the aircraft are similar.... I heard that earlier. Generally Q400s are flown. When the miles are similar for Smithers, Terrace and Prince Rupert, it is hard to understand how the pricing is consistently lower.

What that means is that our residents and businesses are making decisions on where to locate. That affects the overall health of the community. Rural communities are facing enough challenges. When residents are forced to drive.... I guess they're not forced, but one sees the difference in pricing for families and for people moving students to universities. They're making those decisions to travel to another airport, sometimes in the winter when it's dangerous.

I believe that regulation can help. It's about considering what a fair price per mile is when the aircraft is the same or it's at about the same part of the country, in order to provide this economic benefit and economic stability to important communities. We're all important across these corridors.

I'm sorry; I forgot to start my timer. I'm going to hope for the best here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have about 45 seconds left, Mayor.

[Gladys Atrill]

All right. Then I will be quick.

I think what we're looking for is regulation that provides fair competition. We're looking for the airlines to be successful. We realize there's a challenge, but our communities need to have fair, equitable access to air travel. It is critical for the health of our communities and the health of our citizens. That's the regulation I'm urging you to consider.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mayor Atrill.

I'll now give the floor to Mr. Côté for five minutes.

[Daniel Côté, President, Air Transport Commitee, Union des municipalités du Québec]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the members of the committee for giving us the opportunity today to share our comments on this important issue of regional air transportation.

I'd like to point out that the members of the Unions des municipalités du Québec represent 85% of Quebec's population and territory. We've been active for over a century already.

First of all, I'd like to talk about the importance of regional air transportation. It's an essential service for land use and the development of Quebec and its regions. In addition to having a major impact on mobility, this service plays a critical role in local and regional economic and tourism development, as well as on access by residents to health and other services in urban centres.

Regional air transportation in Quebec is currently going through some tough times. To fully understand the situation, let's look at a few key facts. Before 2020, Air Canada had a virtual monopoly on regional services. Naturally, this quasi-monopoly guaranteed reliable service, but it was associated with high ticket costs for travellers.

In June 2020, Air Canada announced the suspension of eight regional routes in Quebec. This announcement sent shockwaves through the industry. Since then, Air Canada's presence in the regions has steadily declined. Today, six carriers share service to Quebec airports in addition to Air Canada. They're all small players with limited resources and a limited number of aircraft. This situation has created new challenges for ensuring reliable, affordable service.

We deplore the absence of the federal government in this matter, despite the fact that air transportation is first and foremost a federal responsibility. Allow me to present you with three current challenges facing regional air transportation in Quebec, along with our recommendations.

The first challenge is the lack of services available and inadequate services. There are frequent delays and flights are often postponed or cancelled. What's more, current flight schedules don't meet users' needs either, making regional air transportation even less attractive.

To improve the situation, our first recommendation is to strengthen the federal government's commitment and give priority to improving regional air service. If the federal government can already recognize the importance of good rail service and invest significant sums each year to ensure affordable service, even in remote regions, we believe that regional air transportation also deserves a similar commitment to priorities because many communities in Quebec and Canada are without rail service and sometimes even roads. Therefore, air transportation has a role to play.

The second challenge is affordability and high ticket costs. Although financial incentives are now being offered by the Quebec government and there's been some competition since 2020, it remains a delicate balance.

It's essential to modernize and completely overhaul the operational and regulatory framework for regional air transportation. The Union des municipalités du Québec, or UMQ, and several other partners such as the Alliance de l'industrie touristique du Québec, the Conseil du patronat du Québec and the Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec, have proposed moving from the current open competition model to a regulated competitive model using private carriers. This new model would allow competition for contracts, while maintaining oversight by a management body. Each region would be able to participate in shaping services to ensure that air services truly meets its own specific needs. Changing the model would require legislative and regulatory changes at the federal level, with the collaboration of the province.

A third new challenge concerns the services provided by Nav Canada, the agency that manages control towers for the federal government. Indeed, a labour shortage has led to a reduction in the services provided by Nav Canada, resulting in occasional service disruptions or the provision of remote services from another airport. This has operational consequences on the airports affected.

The federal government must therefore guarantee the continuity and efficiency of air traffic control services at regional airports, in collaboration with Nav Canada. It must also fund Nav Canada, rather than passing the bill on to carriers and, ultimately, passengers, via ticket prices.

Finally, it's crucial to stress the need for massive investment in airport infrastructure. While the federal government's airports capital assistance program (ACAP) does exist, it needs to be improved. First of all, the budget envelope is largely insufficient to meet needs. What's more, the reference amounts for the purchase of mobile equipment do not reflect the real costs of this type of equipment, which have skyrocketed since the pandemic and the onset of a tide of inflation.

If we were to implement all these solutions, we're convinced that regional air transportation would improve, at least in Quebec.

Thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Côté. You did not exceed your speaking time. We thank you for that.

We'll now begin the first round of questions.

Dr. Lewis, the floor is yours. You have six minutes for your questioning, please.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for coming today and for presenting information on this very important study.

Before we begin our line of questioning, Mr. Chair, I have a few other items that I wanted to raise.

Last week, we had the Minister of Housing and Infrastructure, appear before committee. During that appearance, he committed to provide this committee with a copy of a resignation letter of Ms. Andrée-Lise Méthot, who was a director of the Canada Infrastructure Bank and who is facing investigations with regard to her role at Sustainable Development Technology Canada, or SDTC, and the inappropriate use of taxpayer dollars to financially benefit companies she had connections to. As you know, the minister informed us that Ms. Méthot had tendered her resignation as of April 16. I'd like to know if the minister or the Canada Infrastructure Bank has provided the resignation letter, or the official documentation confirming her resignation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Dr. Lewis.

I have spoken with the clerk, and the clerk has informed us that we have not received that documentation.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

In that regard, Mr. Chair, and in light of that revelation, I'd like to table here today a notice of motion to get to the bottom of the allegations of corruption around Sustainable Development Technology Canada, also known as the green slush fund, and how one of its directors ended up appointed to the board of the Canada Infrastructure Bank.

My motion reads as follows:

Given that

(a) Sustainable Development Technologies Canada, a billion-dollar taxpayer fund, is under investigation by the Auditor General and the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner;

(b) a former director of the fund, Andrée-Lise Méthot, helped to send multiple companies in which she has a financial interest millions of dollars, and despite this, the government appointed her as a director to the Canada Infrastructure Bank;

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), the committee order the Canada Infrastructure Bank to provide the committee, within seven days of the adoption of this motion,

(a) the resignation letter of Andrée-Lise Méthot,

(b) a comprehensive and detailed summary of the projects and the funds that she oversaw during her time on the CIB board,

(c) any internal communications regarding or relating to her resignation from the board, and

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee call the following witnesses to testify before the committee for no less than two hours each: Andrée-Lise Méthot, founder and managing partner of Cycle Capital; Jayne Huntley, PCO director of appointments; Dominic LeBlanc, Minister of Public Safety, Democratic Institutions and Intergovernmental Affairs; and Ehren Corey, CEO of the Canada Infrastructure Bank.

We will send a copy of this motion, Chair, to the clerk for translation and distribution to the members of the committee.

I thank you for this opportunity and cede the rest of my time to my colleague Mr. Davidson.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Dr. Lewis.

Go ahead, Mr. Davidson.

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

How much time is left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have two minutes and 42 seconds, sir.

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

There's so much to talk about in two minutes. I'm just going to start firing them at you, and if you can keep your answers short, that would be great.

I heard three words from all of you, actually—“lifeline”, “essential”, “critical”. Thanks for standing up for rural Canada, because it is essential that we service our rural Canadians.

I wonder, Shelly, if you know the number that your company has spent on carbon tax in the last year for jet fuel. I see your CFO is here. He may be able to pull that number out, or not.

[Shelly De Caria]

Do you have a number?