Transport Committee on May 30th, 2024

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Côté.

[Daniel Côté]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Côté and Mr. Iacono.

Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will continue on in the same vein.

Whether or not they represent airlines, witnesses have often told us that people would like to see some competition in the regions. However, at some point, they realize that the market is too small to be served by two, three or four airlines. It's already hard to fill a plane, so how would you fill two or three and provide a service that makes sense?

To create a free market situation—if I understand your proposal correctly—the solution might be to set up a regulator or a bidding system. So it would be up to the region to define its needs. Then, there would be a call for tenders, and the region would decide which choice would be most advantageous for it.

Have you discussed this with the federal government? Do you have any thoughts on how that might be received?

What legal or regulatory changes would be required to operate in that way? If I understand correctly, it wouldn't be possible at the moment, based on established law.

[Daniel Côté]

That's our understanding. In fact, you've summed up the model we envision quite well.

As for the necessary amendments, I don't have all the details right now. However, in terms of legislation and regulations, the decision was made a number of years ago now to let the free market reign, for better or for worse.

We know that an essential service controlled by the free market, which would be offered based on the profit that people in the private sector can make, cannot work. If our health care system were solely operated by the private sector without public subsidies, essential health care services could not be provided, otherwise it would cost millions of dollars.

An essential service like regional air transportation deserves some attention from the government. We're not saying continue to encourage the free market and provide more subsidies. We're saying that it's possible to get results at a lower cost, while allowing the players to compete through a bidding process. Perhaps there would be one carrier per location and no competition on the ground, but there would be competition upstream. That way, we could get results. At the very least, we should try.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Wouldn't that require financial support from the government?

[Daniel Côté]

As far as unprofitable airlines are concerned, that would probably be necessary, just as any essential service deserves to have a minimum level of government support. As for the rest, we have to take a close look at the models used in Western Australia and in some parts of the United States.

We can provide that information to the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Côté.

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.

Next we have Mr. Bachrach. The floor is yours. You have two and a half minutes, sir.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

One of the promises of competition, of course, isn't only lower prices, but also better service. One of the things we've seen in regional centres, or more rural centres, is that when you have just a single carrier, some of those services get contracted out, and that can cause frustration for passengers who are trying to get customer service.

I wonder, Mayor Atrill, if you could talk about the situation at the Smithers airport and some of the stories you've heard from folks about transparency and communication.

[Gladys Atrill]

Thanks, Mr. Bachrach.

It is one of the problems. We're talking about regulation to protect something that's critical. When there is an issue with a flight coming in, Air Canada uses a subcontractor called Jazz. That's fine. Jazz uses a contractor at the airport, so when there is a problem, there is no service for the customer.

We are told there is a 1-800 number, but I've been at the airport when things go wrong. You can't reach anyone, so you're left with a terminal full of passengers trying to figure out how to help themselves. People are swirling and trying to figure out whether they can get a car and drive to the next airport. I think some transparency on how service is delivered should be mandatory.

We hear a lot about passenger rights, but this is one time when passengers are truly left stranded. If a flight doesn't come in or connections can't be made, those passengers are just left. They don't know who to talk to. The contractor, because it doesn't work for Air Canada, has no access to the system. Except for handing out a card with a number that doesn't get answered, there is no service.

I think there are ways to ensure that critical service is maintained—the experts on the panel have talked about that—and also to make sure that passengers are protected in a real way that is ground-truthed so that when something goes wrong, passengers aren't just left stranded. In our case, it is a single carrier and it can't be reached.

Thanks for that, because I think there is some room to improve the quality. I'm sorry to say I think that would have to be done by regulation.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

How many seconds do I have left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have 30 seconds, sir.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I was going to give Mayor Atrill a chance to talk a little bit about what the Town of Smithers has done to improve the airport and make it more competitive in order to better serve the airlines that use it. That's probably 20 seconds left now, but if you want to list some of the things, that would be wonderful.

[Gladys Atrill]

We've done everything we can. The runway is extended. It's repaved. We're improving the lighting. We're looking at all the mandatory tree cleaning.

I think the one other thing that would go with regulation, because I'm hearing about the cost to airlines, is that if we are mandated to do things—and we will be—make it so that we can afford it. If we're not going to actually transfer the cost back to the users of the airport, the airlines, then the federal government has to consider that. We will do the improvements we have to, because we'll keep the airport in good shape, but there has to be consideration for how those costs are paid.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mayor Atrill.

Next we have Mr. Davidson.

Mr. Davidson, the floor is yours. You have five minutes, sir.

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Thank you.

This is great. We get more time. We can explore a few more things.

Shelly, I'd like to ask you to go into more depth, just so people have a comprehension about the different worlds that are out there in what we'll call the north, urban and rural. I've slept a few nights on a Beaver on a lake, and I know that different challenges come up and how there may be a disconnect with the regulations. How do the regulations, for example, on duty days affect your business, your scheduling, your shortage of pilots and all those sorts of things?

[Shelly De Caria]

I'll go into the crew duty first. I'll use Baffin Island as an example.

If we have five extra medical passengers out of Iqaluit and want to go to Qikiqtarjuaq, adding that stop eliminates three hours automatically. It's only a 40-minute layover, but it immediately sets us back by three hours. Now I cannot bring these five passengers, and I can't add that extra stop. That trickles down on our business.

As I mentioned earlier, I have 175 cancellations a month. It impacts our business. The pilots do want to fly, but if they start at seven in the morning, they're done by two in the afternoon. We used to be able to operate for more hours to be able to bring these critical services to the communities we serve.

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

When you talk about critical services.... Again, I'm sorry that I'm focused on Ontario. We talked about the government and municipalities. I'll talk about Timmins and the Soo.

During the pandemic, a lot of these regional airports had to be open for medevacs, for police and for firefighting. That was just from a regional airport perspective. They didn't get the big subsidies that we saw a lot of big companies get. In fact, we have municipalities fighting with the federal government now in Ontario, because they didn't receive anything. That's put them on their back feet right now, because they were owned by the municipalities, but they were the front line of defence for fire and for medevacs, and we know how important medevacs are in the north for the health of Canadians.

[Nicholas Purich]

A consistent answer to some of the discussion we've had is that the requirement to invest in that critical infrastructure and take the cost away from the user is going to make it easier for those airports to thrive and for carriers to bring service into those airports.

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Right.

When we look at those services.... Talking about rural Canada, I live on a first nations in the middle of Lake Simcoe on Georgina Island in York—Simcoe. Talking about the disconnect with the government, we don't even get the rural top-up on the carbon tax, yet any time the federal government interacts with us, we're classified as rural and remote, so there's a misunderstanding by the federal government on that.

Again, the service that regional airlines provide for medevacs is so important to Canadians for their health. We need the government to understand that if you're shooting an approach into Toronto, you have all kinds of options, but in your case, you're dealing with gravel slips. You're maybe still dealing with an old ADF doing an NDB back-course approach. So that people understand, your minimums might only be 1,200 feet. The challenge is that we see all of that now in the north.

In terms of Transport Canada approving GPS approaches now as they are decommissioning NDBs, do you see that as happening fast enough? Also, do you see the minimums that you're allowed to shoot an approach as satisfactory?

I don't think I have a lot of time, so please be quick.

[Shelly De Caria]

No. The aircraft we have are quite old. To upgrade those is economically just not feasible for us right now, given the seats that are on the aircraft. Getting those tools would be extremely beneficial, with the number of weather cancellations we have in a month.

I want to go back to the medevac flights you're speaking of. The medical patients who fly on our scheduled services are not considered medevac. Those pilots get to land in these airports sometimes, while my guys don't get to do it, because it's called “scheduled services”.

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

It's called scheduled services.

[Shelly De Caria]

Yes, and there's a difference. The medevac can fly because it's medical, but the medical patients on my aircraft, who can only get there on our aircraft, are not considered medevac.

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Do you feel that the government is disconnected when it comes to that?

[Shelly De Caria]

Absolutely. What's the difference between this and that?