Transport Committee on June 6th, 2024

[John McKenna]

Thank you. That is an important question.

The shortage of pilots and aircraft maintenance engineers dates from before the pandemic. It was already a major problem. The pandemic had the effect of moving people out of our sector; they went to sectors that recovered faster from the pandemic. There are also experienced people who decided to retire early because they could not see the day when they would be going back to work. So we suffered a net loss of personnel, a problem that came on top of the pre-existing shortage.

With respect to pilots, the biggest problem is the cost associated with flight training. There is no mechanism to help finance pilot training. To get a basic commercial pilot licence, pilots have to pay out about $100,000. That does not include training on the big aircraft like the ones operated by members of the organizations represented here today. So the cost of getting a basic licence is high. A lot of people are interested in a career as a pilot, but the cost is so high that it discourages some.

However, the labour shortage in aircraft maintenance is more serious than the pilot shortage. Planes will soon be grounded because there is no one to prepare them for flight and pilot them.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

You say the shortage of aircraft maintenance personnel is more serious than the pilot shortage. If I am not mistaken, however, the cost associated with training for maintenance personnel is much lower than the cost of pilot training.

How can that be explained? Are there solutions to this problem?

[John McKenna]

The explanation for the situation is that we are competing for those talents with all the other sectors of the industry.

After getting their college diploma, people accept job offers from companies that operate in other sectors of the industry because they offer more attractive terms and are a better fit with their lifestyle.

We are competing with a lot of companies in this field and we do not often win. It is getting harder and harder. People are no longer motivated by their passion for aviation. Quality of life is just as important a factor for them. Unfortunately, in aviation, we have to work non-standard hours and we are often away from home.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you.

You also said that the user-pay model did not work for transportation in remote areas.

What would the solution be in this case, if we want to ensure the viability of transportation in remote areas?

[John McKenna]

The solution is for governments to make their contribution. To date, the air transportation industry has been a cash cow for the government, in that it pays it a huge amount of money, whether in rent at airports or in other ways. In spite of that, there is no reinvestment in our sector. With the revenue we get from users, we cannot put approach control services in place in the north. We cannot install proper lighting systems. We cannot—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. McKenna.

Unfortunately, your time is up.

Thanks for that.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours. You have four minutes, sir.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of our witnesses.

I'll start with a question for Mr. Schetagne.

Some of the airlines that we've talked to as a committee have suggested that the duty hours regulations are creating delays and impacting their business. I'm wondering, what is the view of the flight attendants you represent when it comes to delays on regional routes and the duty hours requirements imposed by the government?

[Sylvain Schetagne]

I think we have to make a distinction between the duty hours of pilots and the duty hours of flight attendants, and I would probably direct your question on the duty hours of the pilots to the pilots' associations.

In terms of hours and duty hours, one thing that is for sure, for your information, members of the committee, is that for flight attendants, when they are at work, not all those hours they are at work are paid. You will be taking a flight probably after this week, and when boarding, you will have the assistance of a flight attendant who is working, but that is not considered paid work, and it's not paid by most airlines in Canada. We don't think that's acceptable.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

It's pretty astounding that flight attendants aren't actually paid for all the hours they work, and I think, as we've seen with the rather extreme delays and cancellations over the past number of years, really, that the problem is exacerbated.

I know I've gotten on flights and we've had a problem with the aircraft. We got off the flight, waited several hours to get a new plane and got back on. The flight attendants were working that entire time, managing passengers, and they weren't getting paid for a single minute of it. That's something that has to change immediately.

When you were talking about the demarketization, which is a new phrase to me, especially of northern and regional air service, it reminded me of the fact that we've heard many times from airlines that they want the fees and charges to be reduced, and I think that's similar to what we hear from most businesses that appear before committee and are asked about affordability. They say, reduce our fees and charges and we'll make things more affordable.

Does the evidence bear that out? The question is, in markets that lack competition, if you're a business and you have a monopoly or you're part of a duopoly or you're part of an oligopoly and the government reduces your costs, what's the incentive for these businesses? In your view, what's the incentive for these businesses to make things more affordable for customers?

[Sylvain Schetagne]

In theory and in practice, there's no incentive in the circumstances that you just described.

Actually, across-the-board reductions of fees and taxes in a not perfect market with high competition will only contribute to increased profits to those airlines.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Now it does seem like we have a different.... Go ahead, if you want to add to that.

[Sylvain Schetagne]

Yes, I want to add to that, because we've been hearing a lot about this. Basically, it's “Reduce our fees, reduce our fees, reduce our costs, and then the others will come in that perfect world,” and we're very worried here that this is actually going to not only contribute to increased profits for those airlines, but also reduce the capacity of governments, whether it's federal, municipal or provincial, to reinvest where the needs are—the big, major needs. This would be not only to reinvest what has been collected, but probably to put more money towards that infrastructure, as well as helping passengers, as well as helping airports.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Perhaps for the next round, I'll pose the question. I don't think we have enough seconds left for an answer.

We have heard from smaller airlines that have tried to compete in regional markets that the challenge isn't necessarily the fees and charges; the challenge is the predatory pricing behaviour of larger players that seem to intentionally work in certain ways to force competition out of the market.

The question, then, is how we address that effect. Are the Competition Act and the commissioner of competition and the various options we have sufficient to combat what is seen as pretty anti-competitive behaviour by some of the larger airlines? Thank you.

[Sylvain Schetagne]

I probably won't have time to answer, will I?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I'll ask all of our witnesses to hold your thoughts on that until Mr. Bachrach has the floor again.

In the meantime, I'll turn the floor over to Mr. Muys.

The floor is yours. You have four minutes, please.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses who are here for the first time and to those who are returning.

I think Mr. Stout hit the nail on the head that northern and remote airports and airlines are an essential lifeline from a social perspective but also from an economic opportunity perspective. We know that there are many economic opportunities in the north, and there will be more in the future.

We've heard from all of you today, from the previous set of witnesses and from the previous study on competition on high costs. Mr. Morrison had some statistics with regard to the rapid rise in fees and costs. It's alarming and concerning that we have an international reputation as a high-cost jurisdiction.

Aside from the costs, are there some unnecessary regulations or red tape that you could point to that the Minister of Transport or the Department of Transport could deal with today or in the very short term that would at least help advance that competitiveness issue?

We'll just start going from right to left here.

[Jeff Stout]

I think one I'll call out is the acceleration of the recognition of foreign workers and their professional permits in other countries. I'll use the example of mechanics. We see a lot of very qualified individuals who have experience on the types of aircraft we operate. They have equivalent licences in their home domiciles, but when they come to Canada they have to start over. These are people we'd love to bring into Canada, welcome to their new homes and employ at North Star.

If there's a way to accelerate that process and have that recognition, I think it would alleviate some of the issues we're talking about here.

[Jeff Morrison]

I find it interesting, Mr. Muys, that you have an Israeli pin on. At the IATA conference I was just at, one of the airlines I talked to was El Al. They indicated that they have not returned to Canada postpandemic because they recognize that flying back to Canada is too costly for them. They do not have a direct link anymore.

I just want to address the concern about fee charges. When we talk about, for example, allowing airports to retain the $400 million more that they currently pay to the federal government, that's not essentially profiting airlines. That's allowing airports to keep the money they have to invest in infrastructure.

When we talk about the 29% increase in the air navigation fees or the 33% in the air security charge, those are fees that are directly passed on to the passenger. A reduction in those fees does not impact the profitability of an airline. Those are fees that would be directly reduced to the passenger.

There is an element that you heard from the northern carriers last week. Those fee charges do have a direct impact on their ability to do business in terms of affordability in particular.

[John McKenna]

Immigration policies these days are really hurting us. We have members that have hired TAEs and have to return them back home, because the terms under which they came here are now being revoked. They've formed these people. They've trained them, and they're perfectly well trained, but they have to go back home.

There are a lot of things that are illogical. You fly a plane to Great Britain, and you can have it serviced by somebody there, but that person can't come and service it here. There's a lack of logic there somewhere that really needs to be addressed. We understand why they're limiting immigration at some points, but they should make serious exceptions when an industry is in dire shortage of specialized workers.

[Gina Bento]

Yes, I have two points to make on this.

The first one is that, since we're using turboprops right now in the Arctic as opposed to jets, these planes fly with less range and are much slower. When you're looking at limiting the number of hours that pilots are able to fly per day, this is directly going to impact the whole region in a very big way.

For instance, when someone flies a jet plane, they are able to hit three stops in one day. Well, right now, if they are doing those three stops using turboprops, it's going to take them x number of hours longer; therefore, they will not be able to hit all those stops in one day. They might hit two or one, and then, on the next day, they'll then hit the other one.

What's happening is that you have fewer flights being flown to the same routes all around. When you're facing a cargo and passenger deficit followed by a deficit on the number of flights available on a daily, weekly or monthly basis, you're really crippling the entire region.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you.

Unfortunately, we're going to have to stop you there, Ms. Bento. I'm trying to be as even as I can with all members with their time.

Mr. Iacono, I'll turn the floor over to you. You have four minutes.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Schetagne, can you tell us about the labour-related challenges that workers in the aviation industry face, in particular in remote and northern areas?

What measures can be taken to improve working conditions and retain qualified personnel in these areas?

[Sylvain Schetagne]

Thank you for those questions. They are excellent.

When you work in the north or in remote areas, there are multiple challenges. I would note that we do not represent only the big airline companies: We also represent companies like PAL Airlines, Pascan and Calm Air, in Manitoba.

In my experience, and based on the discussions I have had with representatives of airline companies we represent, I can say that in those areas, the workers' working conditions seem to be tougher than elsewhere. It is colder, the flights are shorter, there is boarding and unboarding, the trips are harder, the cancellation policies are complicated. The hours worked in those regions may be recognized, but that is not always the case.

Significant improvement is needed in working conditions, whether in terms of wages or in terms of rest and vacation periods, among other things.

That said, it is not always easy to achieve the targets our members propose at the bargaining table. Unfortunately, the targets are not always attainable.

However, there are potential solutions. As I said a little earlier, the federal government can also play a role. I am thinking of the unworked hours issue. I know that is not within the committee's purview, but I believe legislative changes could be made to the Labour Code, for example, to make sure the hours worked by flight attendants are recognized.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Excellent.

In your work, what fields do you have challenges in, when it comes to labour? Do the challenges involve the number of pilots or mechanics or are the challenges present in all areas?

[Sylvain Schetagne]

The challenges exist in all areas.

The labour shortage and aging workforce issue is not new. I think a witness gave the proof of that a little earlier, in fact. Recruiting is difficult, because working conditions and working hours are complex. For a flight attendant who has to work on a flight with a 6:00 a.m. departure time, for example, it is not easy to reconcile work and personal life when the day care doesn't open until 7:00. Not everyone wants to live like that.