Evidence of meeting #120 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was northern.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Madam Clerk.
Now we'll move to a vote on the motion proposed by Dr. Lewis as amended.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
We're going to have a recorded vote.
Madam Clerk, I turn the floor over to you once again.
(Motion as amended agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Colleagues, that allows us to return to our questioning of the witnesses, who have so generously given us their time today.
What I'm proposing, colleagues, and this will require approval of members, is to try to get through two rounds. I'll adjust things a little by taking the first round and reducing everybody's time to four minutes each. That will give us 16 minutes, followed by a second round where all members would get another four minutes. That would be 32 minutes, which would bring us to exactly 1:15. If there's a gentleman's agreement to not pull any surprises, if members have to leave because they have other things going on, we'll just let all the other members who want to ask questions ask questions, and we'll adjourn at 1:16.
Do I have any objection from members on that?
Seeing none, I will now turn the floor over to....
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Mr. Strahl, I'll turn the floor over to you for four minutes.
I'll remind all members that we have all of our witnesses available for questioning right now.
The floor is yours, sir.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for their patience and for sticking around.
I wanted to talk to the Air Transport Association of Canada.
I noted in the memo that I've read from you, you had a number of concerns about the impact of some government policies on northern airports specifically. I wanted to get your comments. You talked about, I think, in very strong language, the proposed changes to the APPR, calling them outrageous and saying that they will result in diminished services and higher costs for air travel in Canada, mostly affecting those in northern and remote communities.
I'm hoping you can give us some comments on that and, if there's time, deal with the concerns about the approach ban that would also disproportionately impact rural and northern airports.
12:45 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Air Transport Association of Canada
Thank you.
Briefly, yes, government policies in general are really, as I mentioned, hindering the competitiveness, and most affected by these are the northern and regional people, because of the service that we try to provide in those regions.
Yes, in the last few years we've had a number of policies, be it flight and duty times, be it APPR.... Immigration right now also is really hurting us. These are all policies that are doing anything but contributing to our competitiveness. We're asking the government to give us a break here when we're trying to do things. We would expect the government policy to be helping us rather than hindering us.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC
Specifically on the APPR, what would the impact be on those northern communities? Do you believe that because of the onerous nature of the proposal, airlines couldn't risk serving those communities any longer? Would it be because of the punitive nature of the proposed changes to the APPR? What exactly are we talking about that would be so detrimental to those northern communities?
June 6th, 2024 / 12:45 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Air Transport Association of Canada
The cost from the APPR would escalate significantly if the proposed rules being discussed now come into effect. That cost and the cost recovery they're proposing would drive those markets to be not profitable at all. Actually, when the compensation is so high, there's a decision to just cancel the flight way out, rather than have it be late or unable to render services on time.
This is a domino effect. What they're proposing is that, if a flight is delayed somewhere, they're only allowing the second leg of that to be tolerated. Anything beyond that will be punishable. They don't understand how airlines function. The same plane will go to many different airports in one day. If it's delayed at airport one, it'll be delayed right through. We're just not getting comprehension from the regulator as far as that goes.
All of these things accumulated are not helping our northern carriers, because they work with many short legs in a day. These regulations are not adapted to them. It will drive costs up to the point where people will be saying that certain routes are not profitable, so they just can't do them anymore.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much. Your time is up, Mr. Strahl.
Thank you, Mr. McKenna.
Next, we'll go to Mr. Rogers.
Mr. Rogers, the floor is yours. You have four minutes, sir.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Churence Rogers Liberal Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to all of the witnesses here today for their presentations and contributions to this study.
I'd like to ask a very simple question and allow an opportunity for each of you here in the room to speak about it. It's on some of the challenges you face in servicing Canadians in the north, and whether you have experienced any new challenges since the pandemic period.
We'll start with Mr. Stout. Then it's Mr. Morrison, Mr. McKenna and Ms. Bento.
12:45 p.m.
President and Chief Operating Officer, North Star Air Ltd.
Thank you.
I think the biggest challenge we've been facing is with labour, specifically pilots and mechanics. I feel as if there was a decrease in the supply of those individuals during COVID. There certainly was a decrease in demand. That demand curve came back very quickly, but I don't think supply has been able to keep up. It's been hitting us not only on the service basis but also on a cost basis. I think I alluded to 13% more pilots to do the same number of flights, with a 30% increase in those pilot costs.
We want apt, trained and safe professionals in our planes, and we have to pay for that. Anything the government can do to support bringing more of those individuals into the field is greatly welcome.
12:45 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, National Airlines Council of Canada
Thank you.
Very quickly, within the past two years I believe we've seen a 29.5% increase in air navigation fees. We've seen a 33% increase in the air security charge. We have seen a dramatic difference between fuel excise taxes in Canada versus the United States. We've seen the more punitive approach being proposed under the APPR, which frankly will do nothing to improve overall air travel.
The step-by-step increase in some of the fees we face has proven to be very difficult, not just for mainline carriers but also, as Mr. Stout said, for some of the smaller regional carriers.
12:50 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Air Transport Association of Canada
Adding to what my colleagues said, I would say it's a lack of infrastructure. That is really needed.
That is what I want to add to these comments.
12:50 p.m.
Founding Chief Executive Officer, Arctic Aviation, As an Individual
Indeed, I would like to reiterate what John just said. Without infrastructure, it is impossible for us to have an optimal aviation sector functioning in the north. We are regulating this sector from the wrong starting point. Once we have a decent amount of infrastructure in place up there, we'll have a much more realistic picture as to what we need to do in order to make sure we are allowing our airlines to compete and deliver a safe service to Canadian citizens.
I'd like to reiterate that without adequate infrastructure, it is impossible to do any laws that make any sense at the moment. We need a two-pronged approach. We need to immediately look at what kind of infrastructure can be put in place right now to lift the Arctic region out of the dire situation it's in. At the same time, look at what kinds of aviation regulations make sense for this type of region, where you have vast lands, a very small population, a very small market and a high commercial interest. Perhaps there's a play there for us to charge companies additional fees to use those types of services.
Again, I second that comment. I believe that if we build it, sir, they will come. We need to look at infrastructure in order to optimize all of aviation.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Churence Rogers Liberal Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL
Okay. I have a question for CUPE. What are some of the challenges that your workers are facing in rural and remote communities working in that environment?
12:50 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Thank you for the question.
Regarding what has changed since the COVID-19 pandemic, I will mention several things.
First, the situation varies depending on the size of the carrier and the region. Some carriers that offer essential services continued to do so during and after the pandemic, while that was not the case for others. There have been layoffs for the first time at some carriers, and that has direct consequences for the employees. That is an important factor.
Second, as you know, the cost of living is going up, and that makes things more difficult at the bargaining table. Some people will say that things are not going well because of the COVID-19 pandemic, although the industry has recovered and is seeing record profits.
Third, not everyone lives in big cities. As you know, there are people who live far from big cities who use air transportation to get to work. If fewer services are offered in airports, there are fewer employment opportunities. That also has an impact on us and our ability to work.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you, Mr. Schetagne.
Thank you, Mr. Rogers.
Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, the floor is yours for four minutes.
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. McKenna, you talked about a lot of things in your opening remarks. However, not much has been said at this committee, to date, about the impact of the labour shortage on regional transportation.
I hear through the grapevine, for example, that the fact that more pilots are needed than before has meant that the big airline companies have been getting their pilots from the smaller companies. When the smaller ones can't find others because of the shortage of trained pilots, they have to make choices and, in some cases, they have had to simply shut down the airlines, not because the airlines were not profitable, but because these small companies did not have enough personnel.
How can we solve this problem? Surely there is something that can be done so we have enough pilots for the airlines to be able to operate in future.
