Transport Committee on Oct. 10th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 131 of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Before we start the meeting, I'd like to remind all in-person participants to read the best practices guidelines on the cards on the table. These measures are in place to protect the health and safety of all participants.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Friday, September 6, 2024, the committee is resuming its study of passenger rail service and the Via Rail Canada incident of August 31, 2024.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses.

Appearing today, we have the Honourable Anita Anand, Minister of Transport. From the Department of Transport, we also have Arun Thangaraj, deputy minister; Lisa Setlakwe, assistant deputy minister, safety and security; and Craig Hutton, associate assistant deputy minister, policy.

Minister, we're going to give you five minutes for your opening remarks. The floor is yours.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to committee members for giving me the opportunity to participate in this important discussion on the unacceptable treatment of passengers on Via Rail train 622 during the incident that occurred on Labour Day weekend.

I am pleased to have officials from Transport Canada with me today, and I want to thank you for introducing them to the committee, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, like many Canadians, I was shocked to hear about the treatment of the Via Rail passengers who were stranded for more than 10 hours on a train between Drummondville and Quebec City. Passengers had to endure physical and psychological discomfort for hours. Some described the situation like being in prison. Some said they no longer felt safe.

This is completely unacceptable, Mr. Chair. This situation is frustrating and disappointing. There is always the possibility of delays when travelling, but Via Rail has a responsibility to passengers' health and well-being when things like this happen. Simply put, passengers deserved much better treatment on August 31.

I was told that the train had experienced a mechanical failure and that it is now being investigated by Via Rail. However, a mechanical failure absolutely does not mean that the passengers should have been stuck in the train for ten hours with limited access to essential services like food, water and working toilets.

That's why my predecessor stepped in and met with Via Rail executives about this unacceptable incident to demand answers. Immediately after the incident, we demanded that Via Rail take concrete steps and report back to us to ensure this type of thing does not happen again.

Simply put, Via Rail has to improve employee training so its service crew is well equipped to respond to all kinds of situations. They have to do better—provide updates to passengers on their trains more frequently so they know what's going on, and review procedures for incidents like these when a train breaks down, so that passengers receive a basic standard of care and are treated with dignity. For example, if you get stuck on a train for 10 hours, you should always have access to a functioning toilet. However, you shouldn't be stuck on a train for 10 hours to begin with.

We also requested that Via Rail provide us with a robust, updated emergency management action plan, and we asked to receive that in 30 days. At our request, Via Rail have improved the way they respond to situations like these, but we have yet to receive their revised action plan.

Via Rail are independent. They're responsible for determining operational issues related to their network. They need to have alternate travel options available in case of disruptions, which obviously must be provided before the situation escalates into a 10-hour ordeal.

Passenger rail is a critical link for Canadian communities. Via Rail plays an important role in helping to connect people across this country, including those in indigenous and remote communities. We will keep demanding that they provide a reliable rail service that meets the needs of all Canadians.

I am pushing Via Rail to ensure that passengers are treated with the dignity and respect they deserve.

One of our government's priorities is to reduce service delays and interruptions, while ensuring travellers' safety and protecting their rights.

We need Via to do better.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much for those opening remarks, Minister.

We begin our line of questioning today with Mr. Lawrence.

Mr. Lawrence, the floor is yours. You have six minutes, sir.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing today. Congratulations on your new appointment.

I have some serious concerns, though, because after nine years we've seen some pretty significant failures with the transportation files: Canadian passengers have been stranded in airports and trains for hours, even days on end; labour disruptions have put our economy at peril at our ports, railways and airlines; and costs—the cost of air travel and freight—have gone up. At a time when Canadians are facing a record affordability crisis, there are more and higher costs coming from the transportation file.

Minister, we're a G7 country. There are billions of dollars in economic flows. Millions of passengers are counting on reliable transportation. What message does it send to Canadians and, in fact, the rest of the world, that we have only a part-time transport minister?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Mr. Chair, it is absolutely insulting to hear the Conservatives refer to this position, and me personally, as a part-time minister, when in fact the Conservatives themselves did not have a Minister of Transport. Instead they had a minister of many things. There was no stand-alone Minister of Transport, except in one instance: They chose to put that portfolio into an omnibus portfolio—the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure, Communities, Minister of the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec, and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs—so it is laughable that the opposition is referring to me as a part-time minister when I am executing two portfolios expeditiously, responsibly and with dedication to the people of Canada.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

To turn to the events in Quebec over the Labour Day weekend, of course we had passengers stuck on a train, as you said in your statement, for over 10 hours. They had limited food and water. We heard from the passengers, workers and union officials that this was, in fact, not an isolated incident. Can you commit that this will be the last time that passengers are stranded on a Via train, with limited food and water, for more than five hours?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I start by committing to ensuring that Via Rail has revised protocols so this never happens again. Via Rail is an independent organization, a Crown corporation, so it is operationally separate, but I am demanding better service, better quality, better protocols and better communication plans from Via Rail. In fact, I demanded a third party investigation into the events and an update of its emergency action plan and of the review of employee training.

Therefore, you can see, in the short time that I have been transport minister, that I have been on the phone with the chair and with the CEO of Via Rail, demanding better services for passengers and demanding better for the population of our country.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you, Minister, but I don't think protocols will quite cut it. In fact, all of these words were said after the incident that happened in Cobourg, in my riding, when residents had to sit for hours on a Via train. All of these words were, again, spoken. It happened again in Quebec, so I'm asking here, yes or no, going forward, can you commit today to not stranding passengers for more than five hours on Via Rail?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I can commit that Via Rail will do better for their passengers. I can also say that, after the December 2022 incident, Via Rail committed to an action plan that improved the way they handled emergencies with passengers in tow, and it is clear that these policies weren't properly applied during the Labour Day weekend this year. That's why I asked for an updated emergency management plan, a third party investigation and concrete steps to improve communication, and I will ensure that these issues are addressed. Passengers and Canadians deserve better.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Passengers require more than just protocols and action plans. They require results.

Could you give us an outline of how many times your predecessor, former minister Rodriguez, talked to Via Rail, either by email or by phone conversation, in the three months prior to the incident?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I will ask my deputy minister to respond to that question.

[Arun Thangaraj, Deputy Minister, Department of Transport]

I know that, immediately following this incident, the previous minister did speak with Via Rail. I personally spoke with the chair of Via Rail, as well as the CEO, on this occasion.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

When? In the three months prior, how many times did the former minister talk to Via Rail?

[Arun Thangaraj]

I'm not privy to all of the—

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you.

I'd like to actually stop right now, and I'd like to bring a unanimous consent motion—I'm hoping it'll be done very quickly—to have the former minister, Pablo Rodriguez, who's currently a member of Parliament, appear before this committee as part of the Via Rail study.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Okay.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

This member is not even letting the witnesses answer his questions. He already has another motion—

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

With respect, Mr. Chair, that's not a point of order.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

He didn't answer the question, and he was going to—

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

That's not a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Lauzon.

We have a motion that was put forward by Mr. Lawrence, which is up for discussion.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Just for the sake of the interpreters, I think it would be respectful for all parties to be able to ask a question, as well as to give the person to whom we're asking the question the time to respond to the question, and not to, like our colleagues across just recently, jump over and talk over. I have a problem hearing it; I'm virtual today. I ask, Mr. Chair, that you impose this rule because it does disturb my ears when we have people talking over.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Iacono. That's so noted.

I ask all members to please allow proper time for translation, particularly for those who are joining us virtually.

Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate that my colleague, Mr. Lawrence, is bringing this motion forward. I think he's trying to get some very specific information about communication between the former minister and Via Rail.

I appreciate that this incident happened right at the end of his time as minister, so it's understandably difficult for the current minister to provide information on what the former minister was communicating at the time. I don't see it as being out of order.

My concern is that we have the new minister with us. We have a limited amount of time. I have a whole bunch of questions I would love to ask her. I hope that we can dispense with this motion as quickly as possible so that we can get back to the important testimony.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Yes. We would be agreeable to doing that in the second round, at the end of this. That's fine.

Thank you.