Transport Committee on Oct. 31st, 2024

[Constance Ramacieri]

Most probably, but unfortunately, we don't have the information right here now today.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Philip Lawrence]

Thank you, Mr. Muys.

I believe we go to Mr. Lauzon from the Liberal Party for six minutes, please.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses who came here in person, as well as Mr. Collard, who joins us by video conference.

I'd like to start with you, Ms. Cloutier.

In your testimony, you mentioned how the design of this type of vessel has evolved. They've modernized quite a bit over time. Earlier, in response to Mr. Muys' question about whether there were more boats or fewer boats, you answered that, according to your findings, there were more. In addition to boats with powerful engines, there are also high-performance electric boats now.

Tell me a little bit about this side of things. Did you feel that electric boats had even greater power and that this new generation of boats was generating a lot of waves?

[Denise Cloutier]

Allow me to digress for a moment. Since electric boats and powerful electric motors are much more expensive than combustion engines, we don't see many of them on the water yet.

However, at the last boat show, we saw 600-horsepower engines. What lake can you sail on with two 600-horsepower engines? There aren't that many lakes in Quebec that are at least 600 metres wide.

Manufacturers are building bigger, more powerful products, and there's nothing to stop those boats from being put on a lake. There may be municipal-controlled boat ramps, but once the boats are on the water, there's nothing we can do.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

We heard from witnesses representing boat manufacturers and retailers on Tuesday. According to them, not only have boat sales decreased, but the size of boats on our lakes has also decreased.

Ms. Ramacieri, how do you interpret these statements that there are fewer large boats being sold in Quebec and in Canada?

[Constance Ramacieri]

I'll let Mr. Sicard answer that question, since he's looked much more closely at the issue of navigation.

[Claude Sicard, Administrator, Fédération québécoise de défense des lacs et cours d’eau]

We don't have any data on boat sales. However, we do know that many environmental problems in the lakes are created by boats, wake boats in particular.

We think there should be national standards, similar to those that exist in Vermont. We can try to simplify the current forms, but if we don't create national standards to ensure that people have good practices and use the right types of boats in the right places, municipalities will always have a hard time policing navigation. In fact, both the federal government and the municipalities will be bogged down in red tape, so we have to come up with national standards. Under the Constitution, that is a federal responsibility.

The other thing that is extremely important is that we have to have an overall economic vision. Yes, boat sales are extremely important, and I'm not against that industry. However, there are also environmental costs. As soon as a lake or a river starts to have environmental problems, it can cost hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars to try to restore them to good condition. We talked about the Richelieu River earlier. In some cases, it is simply not possible. So you have to be able to weigh all of those things in an economic analysis model. Again, this is a federal responsibility.

I think we have made a lot of progress in recent years on the technical and regulatory front. Now, we need to take this to another level and have a more comprehensive vision in order to leave our children with healthy lakes and rivers. To do that, we have to have a broader economic vision.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Mr. Sicard, you mentioned the federal government's responsibility with respect to the regulations in force today. However, do you agree that this is a shared responsibility that falls to the residents and the environmental associations, as well as the municipalities, the provincial government and the federal government?

Earlier, you suggested that environmental awareness be included in the act. The Department of Transport is separate from the Department of Environment, but everyone has to work together.

We are holding consultations until November 28 on the review of the vessel operation restriction regulations. The purpose of this review is to simplify the process. For some, the process took seven years to complete, as Mr. Collard told us. However, the current regulatory process takes about four years to get started. That is still too long.

We heard from witnesses that it was possible, under the current regulations, to regulate navigation with a particular squadron. These witnesses seemed satisfied with the process, which they put in place about 10 years ago.

In your opinion, what could be done better, apart from talking to each other and facilitating enforcement of these regulations?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Philip Lawrence]

You have 30 seconds to respond.

[Constance Ramacieri]

There are uneven means. You have more resources than the small associations and municipalities in Quebec.

If a municipality with 25 lakes wants to amend the regulations, it needs to make 25 separate applications. That's unreasonable. There are things you can do to ease the burden on municipalities.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

That indeed needs to be simplified.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Philip Lawrence]

Thank you for the timeliness, too, and the interpretation, Mr. Lauzon.

Next up, we have the Bloc Québécois and Mr. Barsalou-Duval for six minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today. I'm very happy they're here. This is a study that could take much longer than the time we have, but we will take advantage of the time we have. That will already be a win.

I'd like to begin with an issue that was raised at the previous meeting, and that we discussed again today, although not quite as in depth. I'm talking about lake carrying capacity, that is, the maximum number of boats that can be on a given lake simultaneously.

Coalition Navigation seems to have found a way to measure how many boats can simultaneously navigate on a lake or river. Is there a method or formula for calculating that?

[Denise Cloutier]

There are studies showing those methods. I can't cite them for you now, but the methods do take into account the size of the lake, the number of boats, the amount of space they need for navigation and the social component. I actually wrote an article for Québec Yachting about the carrying capacity of lakes, and I refer to a number of studies leading to those findings.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Collard, you quickly mentioned the regulations that were introduced for the Richelieu River. I was involved in that process, in my riding. As you mentioned, it took seven years. I've talked about it as well, in previous meetings.

First, do you think it's normal that it took seven years?

Second, what was that like for you, personally? How did you feel throughout that long process?

[Raynald Collard]

It was a happy experience for me, I have to say. We were this great group of 12 people getting together to discuss responsible boating, water, the Richelieu River heritage and such. We worked on setting objectives. It was a good experience for me, except in relation to the pandemic.

The most important thing about the much-talked-about measures put in place in December 2023 is that they provide a model, in my view. They say the process to make regulatory changes takes about four years now. It took us seven years. That means that things can move more quickly now.

The federal government stepped in to shorten the time frame and ease the pressure on municipalities, but it could do more on that front. Municipalities are looking into implementing those regulations, including Saint‑Ours, Saint‑Roch‑de‑Richelieu and Belœil. It's coming along. I tell them that there's a model available and that they can use it. I suggest they reach out to their member of Parliament and municipal authorities—

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you. Sorry to interrupt, but I want to make sure I have time to ask you enough questions.

I want to ask you a question I asked witnesses at our last meeting, but they didn't really know what to say.

Requested changes to the schedules or at least the regulations include limits on speed and motor size. It seems, however, that certain changes can't be requested, such as putting restrictions on anchoring or prohibiting large waves.

Are you aware of jurisdictions in the world that allow regulatory changes that can't be requested here currently? Would it be a good idea for people making these requests to have this available to them?

[Raynald Collard]

Generally speaking, it is possible to use a waterway without going to a marina. In the past, I've had to warn a boater who was about to drop anchor in a protected area between Île aux Cerfs and Île de Jeannotte. It's a pretty spot, protected from waves and other boats. He thought it was fine to drop anchor there, but it's a protected area. It is home to an aquatic-grass bed that is crucial to copper redhorse. You can't drop anchor there, but you can do it next to the area. Keep in mind that the Richelieu River is 130 kilometres long. If you take away the channels and the Chambly Basin, you have 100 kilometres or so where you can cast anchor with no issues.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you.

Would the representatives of Coalition Navigation or Fédération québécoise de défense des lacs et cours d’eau like to add anything?

[Constance Ramacieri]

I have a little bit to add.

In Great Britain, the government has conferred protection on lakes. The speed limit in those areas is 10 kilometres an hour. They're used mainly by sailboats, because the speed limit encourages motorboats to go elsewhere.

It is possible, then, to take an approach establishing that certain lakes warrant protection and thus measures to ensure that protection going forward. They could be lakes that have significant value, are ecologically important or even play a role in tourism. That is the federal government's role.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

With that in mind, do you think a specific department should be directly responsible for taking measures, say, Environment Canada or Fisheries and Oceans Canada? If the department is of the view that species are endangered—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Philip Lawrence]

Thank you very much. I apologize, but we're out of time.

Next is Ms. Dance for six minutes, please.

[Leila Dance, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much.

Thank you so much to all the witnesses who have come out today to share information with us. We really appreciate it.

Something that I found the most jarring is Ms. Cloutier spoke about a lake where only 31 vessels should have been on it, but over 600 were operating on it.

I'm interested to know how the government could deal with that. What are some of the suggestions she might have, and are there any recommendations to tackle that issue moving forward?

[Denise Cloutier]

One of Coalition Navigation's recommendations is that the government establish broad standards based on the bathymetry of lakes, instead of having different regulations or restrictions for each lake.

Lac des Sables, for instance, has an average depth of 20 feet, just under seven metres. Wake boats should never be allowed on the lake.

Let's say the federal government established a standard based on the bathymetry of lakes to demarcate areas where certain types of boats were allowed to navigate. Municipalities could then enforce that standard. First, though, the federal government needs to say that the standard is based on bathymetric data confirmed by scientific studies and that the purpose is to protect the environment. That is the government's role.

That would be the easiest way to go about it. The government would no longer have all kinds of requests coming in for restrictions on lakes.

[Leila Dance, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

With that in mind, would it be better if the federal government empowered municipalities to make some of these decisions?