Evidence of meeting #143 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rail.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON
Can you tell me which criteria are used to decide whether to launch an investigation?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
We have a policy on event classification that was developed by my colleagues from the Transportation Safety Board of Canada and myself. It assists us in determining the scope of our investigations into each specific event.
There are a number of criteria. I will not go through all of them, but the main one is whether there are lessons to be learned in terms of safety.
Keep in mind that, year in, year out, between 3,500 and 4,000 events are reported to us for every mode of transportation. However, we cannot investigate every one of these events. We have to choose which ones to investigate further, and one of the main criteria is whether there are lessons to be learned in terms of safety to improve Canada's transportation system.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON
Would you say that accidents like the one in Longueuil occur frequently?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Toxic emissions from hazardous chemicals as we saw in Longueuil are not very frequent. As I said earlier, we had six events in 2023, and the yearly average is about four. Considering the vastness of the Canadian transportation system, that is not a lot.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON
Do we know what, in fact, caused the accident? I do not know if I should ask the officials from Transport Canada or the Transportation Safety Board of Canada.
We have not been told much about the accident's causes. All we know from Canadian National is that the situation was under control. It feels like we are being left in the dark.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
The information we gathered is in the hands of our investigators. I cannot give you anything more than what you have already learned through the media.
The investigation will need to progress a bit more.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON
Does Transport Canada have any more information to share?
Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
Mr. Béland can tell you a bit more.
Our assessment is ongoing. We have some data, but nothing concrete regarding the causes of this particular event.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON
That is surprising. The accident occurred a month ago and we still do not know what happened.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
We usually do not comment on active investigations. Things may change as the investigation progresses.
We release facts on causes and contributing factors when reports are published. That is how we operate because causes and contributing factors of accidents are determined by the TSB—by my colleagues and myself. The investigation needs to be completed first, however.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON
When can we expect to see the report?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Investigations can take from six months to a year and a half, depending on their scope. A limited scope generally means a quicker investigation. If we need to investigate an accident really in depth, it can take longer.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON
Is there no obligation on the part of railways or Transport Canada to communicate with the public to let people know what happened close to their homes?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
If during an investigation we find evidence of safety concerns that absolutely need to be made public or reported to the regulatory body within Transport Canada, we do so. We have regularly done so. In such cases, we release a briefing document to the people who need to know.
We can do that while an investigation is ongoing. Our mandate clearly allows for that. If safety concerns become apparent over the course of the investigation, we will release the information.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Marier.
Next we have Mr. Bachrach.
Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours. You have six minutes, sir.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Welcome, gentlemen.
I initiated these hearings as a representative of a region that has seen a dramatic increase in the transportation of dangerous goods by rail. While that development has brought with it some incredible economic benefits for communities, it also raises a lot of questions for the people who live along the rail corridor. I think people deserve answers to their questions. They deserve the assurance that their life and property are safe from the transportation of dangerous goods. Perhaps more importantly, the first responders who are responsible for responding to incidents when things go wrong, who put their life on the line and who dedicate their time to protecting their neighbours, have questions as well. I believe they deserve answers.
I was hoping that the focus of these hearings could really be on the emergency response of communities. I understand that there's a lot of information about risk reduction. That is important, for sure, but I don't think any of that reduces the need for communities to have adequate plans in place that protect them in case something goes wrong.
I see you all nodding, so I assume that you agree with that statement.
I want to open my questioning with some questions about some of the more high-consequence scenarios that could face a community that sees unit trains of dangerous goods parked in rail yards or moving through the community in close proximity to where people live and work.
I think my first question would go to you, Mr. Béland. Is a major fire involving tank cars full of dangerous goods the kind of situation to which communities along rail corridors should be prepared to respond?
Acting Director General, Transportation of Dangerous Goods, Department of Transport
Absolutely. They should be prepared to respond.
We've done quite a bit. We've worked a lot with the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs to develop some resources for communities so they can plan better. One of those resources is a document called “You're Not Alone!”. It's emergency response planning for rail incidents involving flammable liquids. The purpose of that document is to assist local communities to plan and prepare for potential rail incidents involving the transportation of dangerous goods, specifically flammable liquids, crude oil, diesel fuel and gasoline.
We also have the 24-hour CANUTEC centre, which is staffed by chemists and experts in dangerous goods who can provide real-time advice to first responders, 24 hours a day—
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
If I may, I'm going to try to get through six or seven questions. I only have six minutes. I appreciate the information.
I shared with you, prior to the meeting, a page from an emergency response guidebook to which Transport Canada contributes. The table on page 359 talks about BLEVE, or boiling liquid expanding vapour explosion. I'm sure that, as the director general for transportation of dangerous goods, you're familiar with these events. They are extremely high-consequence events with massive destructive force.
I'm wondering if you could, based on the table—the way I read it—share with the committee the minimum time to BLEVE failure for a tank car experiencing full torch conditions. This would be a tank car with 140,000 litres of dangerous goods, such as propane, on board.
Acting Director General, Transportation of Dangerous Goods, Department of Transport
I'll have to take that back to my experts.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
It's in the table the experts created. From full torch conditions, it's nine minutes until that tank car turns into a bomb.
Now, according to the table, what is the minimum evacuation radius for a potential BLEVE involving a tank car carrying 140,000 litres of propane?
Acting Director General, Transportation of Dangerous Goods, Department of Transport
The minimum evacuation distance is 1,715 metres, according to this chart.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
That's 1.7 kilometres. Am I reading correctly that you would have to evacuate a 1.7-kilometre radius to avoid a BLEVE, which can occur within nine minutes of a car reaching full torch conditions? That's what the table says.
Acting Director General, Transportation of Dangerous Goods, Department of Transport
Okay.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
How quickly after a derailment could full torch conditions occur?
Acting Director General, Transportation of Dangerous Goods, Department of Transport
I couldn't answer that.