Transport Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Hanley. It's very generous of you.

Next we will go to Monsieur Garon.

Mr. Garon, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

For six minutes and five seconds, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Oommen, during the pandemic, the Canadian Transportation Agency has faced a lot of problems as people filed complaints about the Air Passenger Protection Regulations. We know now that the agency still has not handled tens of thousands of complaints.

Do you think your organization is performing well?

[Tom Oommen]

I will repeat what I said earlier. We now have the capacity to make 15,000 rulings per year thanks to internal efforts to improve the process. Before the pandemic, our capacity was 5,000 rulings per year using the same resources. We have increased our efficiency and our ability to make rulings on complaints tremendously.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

The number of complaints that are not handled is equal to the number of complaints filed with the agency minus the number of complaints handled by the agency. If I file a complaint tomorrow and I am number 25,000 on the list, how long should I expect to wait before I get an answer?

[Tom Oommen]

I cannot give you a specific answer. That being said, if the backlog is 25,000 complaints and we can handle 15,000 in a year with our current resources, that gives an indication of the time it might take.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Let me do the math: If I am number 25,000 on the list, it means that if my complaint is filed today and handled according to current resource levels, I will have to wait one year and eight months before I get an answer.

If I am that citizen who is 25,000th in line, should I have confidence in the agency? Do you think that such delays are reasonable? Do you think there is room for improvement?

[Tom Oommen]

Mr. Chair, I think there's always room to improve.

As I said, we've made efforts within the agency to improve how we handle complaints based upon improvements in our processes.

I would like to note—and I know this was brought up a bit earlier—that 97% of our complaints are handled at the first, informal stages of complaint handling through facilitation and mediation. It's only 3% of complaints that come to us that get to the adjudication stage, because we've become very good at getting to the core of the issue with the airlines and the passengers at the first, informal stages of the dispute. As I said, 97% of those cases get resolved before ever going into a formal process.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

We understand that your organization is independent. You like to mention it, and I know that it is true. Still, during the pandemic, when passengers did not get any respect from airlines and could not get refunds for their plane tickets and the agency was completely overwhelmed, the government had to step in and tell the airlines to refund passengers' tickets, almost having to resort to threats.

Is that an indication that you did not have the resources or the expertise to do the job at that point in time? Is my interpretation correct?

[Tom Oommen]

Mr. Chair, I would say that we definitely have the expertise to handle the complaints before us and to handle our mandate. We have a deep expertise within the agency on rail and air matters, which we apply to the subject matter of complaints. As I said, we've made great strides in using the resources that we have and that we've been given. As I mentioned, we have an extra $11.5 million to the end of the fiscal year to allow us to maintain our current rhythm of resolving complaints.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

My question was more about government intervention. If an airline refuses to refund my ticket as prescribed by the regulations, it should go through you. Do you not find it very strange that one has to go to the government for the administrative justice that is supposed to be served by your administrative tribunal?

[Tom Oommen]

We handle the requests that we receive. It is true that the government had to come to the airlines' aid during the pandemic to help them to get through it. Did that have an effect on the handling of complaints by the agency? Probably, but those are two different issues. Government help is one thing; handling of complaints by the agency is another.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

I only have a few seconds left. So my interpretation is correct when I say that the government not only helped out the airlines. It also helped out the agency. You are confirming that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Garon and Mr. Oommen.

Mr. Bachrach, you are the last member to have the floor. You have six minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Oommen, for joining us.

You characterized the CTA as an independent and impartial quasi-judicial body. Could you detail for the committee the internal policies the CTA has in place to handle potential interference from the federal government in matters of your inquiry?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Mr. Oommen, did you hear that question?

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Are there policies at the CTA that protect its independence and that provide guidance to the personnel of the CTA to ensure that its independence is not compromised?

[Tom Oommen]

I seem to be having some technical problems.

Can you hear me, Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

We can hear you.

I will turn it over to Mr. Bachrach, and we'll start the clock again to ensure he doesn't lose the time. I want to make sure he gets to ask that question.

Go ahead, Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Oommen, you described the CTA as an impartial and independent quasi-judicial body. My question was whether the CTA has policies in place to protect against potential interference by the federal government or another party and to ensure that that independence and impartiality are maintained.

[Tom Oommen]

Thank you, Chair.

There are several ways in which the agency's independence is safeguarded. The composition and structure given to the agency under the act include several specific safeguards to ensure that the CTA is not controlled or inappropriately influenced by the government or others. Then the agency has adopted additional safeguards to maintain its independence and impartiality.

Some of those key safeguards include the rules regarding the selection and appointment of agency members by the Governor in Council, along with the provisions in the act regarding members' tenure. There are conflict-of-interest prohibitions under the act, as well as other statutes' requirements governing the conduct of members and employees, which are set out in our code of conduct and our values and ethics code and are embedded in various agency practices.

We have rules, guidelines and practices for complaints and determinations to ensure a fair process. For example, agency members decide cases based solely on the material that is filed in the record of proceedings, on which the parties have had an opportunity to comment, to prevent improper external influence.

There are also CTA practices when engaging with government officials, industry stakeholders and consumer and disability rights organizations, first and foremost of which is that the merits of specific cases are not discussed.

With these safeguards in place, I think the agency fulfills its administrative decision-making function in an independent and impartial manner. I think that was the answer to the question, Chair.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I guess what I'm getting at, Mr. Chair, is that there are documents that show that senior officials with Transport Canada were in conversations with the CTA in advance of the very controversial decision on allowing airlines to provide vouchers as opposed to refunding passengers for flights.

As well, the transport minister's chief of staff took part in a call with the chair of the CTA and a Transport Canada deputy minister to discuss vouchers, so this was all prior to a major decision to put out a statement on vouchers, which, early in the pandemic, had a huge bearing on the treatment of the travelling public.

I'm not sure I'm going to get an answer from Mr. Oommen, but I would offer that in another judicial context, that kind of interference would be absolutely inappropriate, such as, for instance, if the government called a judge and said, “Hey, I'm really concerned about the financial status”—in this case, the government is talking about Air Transat, saying that they're getting pressure from creditors who are pushing the airlines for cash—essentially doing the bidding of the airlines and expressing concern for their financial position. They're doing that to a quasi-judicial, arm's-length independent agency. It's absolutely mind-boggling that such a thing was allowed to take place.

I didn't hear in the list of policies and practices at the CTA anything that protects against that kind of inappropriate interference.

I'm not sure how I'm doing for time, Mr. Chair, but I have one more question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have one more minute.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Oommen, could you indicate which sections of the APPR tend to contribute the bulk of these 25,000 complaints with the CTA? Many of these 25,000 are complaints about the same thing, which is being abandoned by the airlines. Which sections of the APPR tend to come into play when we are dealing with delays and cancellations?

[Tom Oommen]

I think that was a two-part question.

To perform some of its regulatory functions, the agency does engage with government officials, with the industries it regulates, and with consumer and disability rights organizations. That engagement is required by law or government policies when the CTA develops certain regulatory instruments.

In other cases, in other situations, engagement allows the agency to, for example, further its expertise to understand the transportation trends and issues that it needs to take into account. Engagement allows the agency to remain current and relevant and to competently advance its mandate, which is set out in section 5 of the act as part of the national transportation policy.

The complaints we've been getting have been, as was noted, largely related to flight disruptions and cancellations over the summer. That largely meant a lot of complaints coming in about compensation, about refunds and about baggage issues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Oommen.

Thank you very much, colleagues, for your line of questioning today.

That concludes today's meeting. The meeting is adjourned.