Transport Committee on Oct. 5th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Laskowski, and thank you very much, Mr. Muys.

Mr. Iacono, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being with us today.

My first question is for Mr. Burgan.

Mr. Burgan, in your opinion, what are the most critical labour shortages in your sector, namely transportation?

[Omar Burgan]

The number of vacancies in the trucking industry is the problem we’ve been talking about the longest. As I said, a labour shortage was predicted as far back as 2013, when the report by the Conference Board of Canada came out. That was before the pandemic and the supply chain crisis. There was a lot of talk in that report about making the trade more attractive.

However, as I noted earlier, there are a lot of pressures in the rail sector as well. The data is approximate, since we don’t have statistics on it, but what I’ve learned is that a company will hire 100 people, but often only 20 will be left two years later.

When it comes to working conditions, I mentioned rail workers being monitored on camera, but companies want to enforce other very arbitrary regulations. For example, employees are not allowed to use mobile phones, even when it is safe. So, the employee is going to find themselves…

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Is the situation the same for people transporting containers?

[Omar Burgan]

Are you talking about trains or trucks?

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

I’m talking about people who transport them by train or by truck.

Is their situation the same?

I’m asking the question to get a better idea of the most affected sectors. If the problem isn’t solved, I’d like to know which sectors will be the most problematic.

Can you give us more details about the most seriously affected sectors?

[Omar Burgan]

It’s hard to say.

We haven’t studied vacancies in the rail sector as closely. Right now, we are focusing more on the crisis in the trucking sector.

As noted earlier, Statistics Canada publishes numbers every quarter. The last time I checked, there were approximately 26,000 vacancies. This occupation has the second-highest number of vacancies among all those analyzed by Statistics Canada. The crisis is affecting this sector more seriously.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Burgan.

Ms. Abou‑Dib, in your opinion, what is the most important measure to address the labour shortage?

Would it be a matter of offering more training programs, considering specific immigration categories, more automation or something else?

What do you suggest to the committee today?

[Mariam Abou-Dib, Executive Director, Government Affairs, Teamsters Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Iacono.

Good evening, everyone.

There is no universal solution to the trucking sector labour shortage. We really need to look at the trucking sector more broadly.

The issue is determining how to make the industry more attractive for youth and women.

Currently, there are young people and women who don’t have a job, but are looking for one. And yet the sector is experiencing a labour shortage.

We need to invest in training, but also make the sector more attractive.

We need to value the trucking sector. To do so, we must recognize that it’s a professional sector. Currently, employer associations and unions need to get on the same wavelength, which is significant. The trucking sector needs to be recognized as a professional sector. Not everyone can become a trucker. They have to pass a test to get their license, and there are training and apprenticeship programs, just like in the construction sector.

We therefore need to value the trucking sector, just as we value the construction sector.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Iacono and Ms. Abou‑Dib.

Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, you have the floor for two and half minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will address Mr. Laskowski first.

Mr. Laskowski, so far we have heard a great deal about the trucker shortage. However, among the means considered to solve problems, there is that of accomplishing the same amount of work with fewer workers.

Is it possible to implement certain technologies or take certain measures to reduce the amount of personnel in transportation?

I’m asking the question very openly. I am aware that, if there is no driver in the truck, nothing moves.

We are not yet at the stage of self-driving cars, but perhaps there are other solutions I don’t have in mind.

What do you think?

[Stephen Laskowski]

I don't think the issue here is about technology per se. We're looking at technology this way: Driver-assist technology is making trucks safer in terms of the truck itself, the vehicle. If you are aware of how to use that vehicle in a safe manner and have been given proper training and proper onboarding, we can move the economy more safely. I think that's the most important part of technology.

If we have a properly plain driver, one who's been onboarded in a safer truck with more modern technology, that's when CCA rates to encourage more technology coming on to the trucks could be used from the tax incentive side. That's one approach.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I’d like to come back to Mr. Burgan.

Mr. Burgan, you talked about how the sector is unattractive, and highlighted that it’s important to offer good working conditions.

If we were to implement certain technologies resulting in less driver fatigue or a more pleasant work experience, wouldn’t that lead some to drive a truck? Then they wouldn’t be exhausted when they get home and would feel like they are getting some support.

[Omar Burgan]

You are absolutely right.

That would be the case for any measure that helps to reduce fatigue. I mentioned the lack of truck stops. Truck drivers often tell us that they have to extend their trip, and that means skipping meals or rest. That really generates frustration and fatigue. They all agree that the sector is vital to the economy, but if they are constantly exhausted and away from their families, their personal choice will be to find work elsewhere.

Any measure that could make their work easier, whether it be technology or anything else, would be beneficial.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Burgan and Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.

Next we have Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Burgan, you mentioned that among rail workers you hear a lot of concern about the scheduling and the nature of the shift work. I believe you called it “the beck and call...24-7”. It reminded me of some of the testimony we heard as part of our study on rail safety from workers in the rail sector. I was remembering a conversation with a young man in my home community who worked for the railroad for a short period of time. One of his co-workers was killed in a rail accident.

I was just looking down the road at the risks inherent in that sector. I wonder about the impact of the work environment in terms of safety and the impact that has on recruitment and retention of workers in the sector. Could you speak to that and how we address it?

[Omar Burgan]

To get a good perspective on that.... I've never worked in the rail sector, and I'm only starting to hear more and more stories. When I started, I asked if I could go on site and ride the train with one of the Teamster members, and I was told no, because the risk to my personal safety was too high.

It is a workplace, where people have died. Every year we hear horrible stories, so I think it's definitely a sector in which, if your personal safety is constantly at risk, there is an inordinate amount of pressure. I don't doubt that many would end up leaving because of that.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you.

You mentioned, Mr. Burgan, that in the parcel sector there are increasing expectations around productivity. The numbers you shared were quite startling. Again, I'm wondering how the committee might get traction on that particular issue when it comes to the conditions of work—through policy or legislation.

[Omar Burgan]

That's a good question. I don't know if my colleague, Mariam, has any thoughts on that.

[Mariam Abou-Dib]

Yes. I think it's very similar to the trucking industry, when we're talking about working conditions where we want to attract women and youth, and not just youth in terms of younger workers, but newer workers as well.

On the number of hours, I think there's definitely a consistency in what we hear from drivers, courier drivers as well as freight drivers, about the hours of work, the demands and the pressures on their work-life balance.

If we want to make it more attractive, we're going to have to start being much more creative around addressing the issue of work-life balance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bachrach. Thank you, Ms. Abou-Dib.

Next we have Mr. Jeneroux. You have five minutes. The floor is yours.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for taking the time today to be here.

I want to start first with the trucking association. The March 2020 report by Trucking HR Canada indicated high levels of voluntary turnover among truck drivers, which contributes to labour shortages, obviously, in the profession. I'm curious as to why truck drivers are voluntarily leaving the profession, and if this is indicated by the age of the drivers.

[Stephen Laskowski]

People leave a profession for all types of reasons. One is retirement, and I mentioned that in my earlier comments. The other is the major reason people are leaving trucking companies.

I'm very familiar with TruckingHR Canada and who they survey. Many of them are on my board and throughout boards across Canada.

Those drivers aren't leaving the industry; they're leaving a payrolled, labour-compliant company and going to the underground economy. That is the major issue facing trucking companies across Canada. They're losing good drivers and good people to the underground economy because they want to abide by the law. They're enforcing the law, and they're being abandoned by the law.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Back to you, Mr. Laskowski, is that predominantly younger drivers? You started by saying it was the retirement age, but then indicated that it might be others. I'm just trying to get a ballpark idea of where on the spectrum these drivers are.