Transport Committee on Oct. 5th, 2022

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, I want to welcome all the guests today. It's been great testimony and very interesting information you've provided to all the members of this committee.

Mr. Rodgers, I'll ask you a question first off, and then I'll give the others a chance to respond.

We have a lot of labour shortages occurring in many sectors. In the transportation sector, in the marine industry on the east coast there's a shortage of ship's officers, for example, that is creating some real challenges for shipping companies. Then also in the trucking industry there are similar kinds of problems.

Let me ask you this, Mr. Rodgers. Are there particular aspects of the transportation sector that are unique when it comes to labour shortages? If there are, can you possibly elaborate?

[Bruce Rodgers]

We're experiencing difficulty with the classification of a freight forwarder. I don't believe the general population—and maybe a lot of people around this table as well—truly understand what a freight forwarder is.

What we're trying to do is get that group classified under the national occupation classification code, because currently they are classified as “shippers and receivers”. When you're looking to bring people into the country to train them on this, they can come in only on a temporary work permit, and they're allowed to be here only for up to two years.

We're working with the NOC and trying to get them to change that classification so that it's more of a skilled position whereby those individuals could come in and, under the express entry system, obtain permanent residency and then move on into the workforce and into their careers in Canada.

The challenge we are faced with is that the review of the NOC occurs only every 10 years. They do a little cursory review initially, but it's 10 years before they do the major review. From our perspective, that's taking too long, and we're trying to position that.

We're talking about labour, and I won't belabour the point here, but the other challenge is that we have significant equipment-related issues that are going to be challenged. If we bring in 30,000 drivers, I'm not convinced we have the equipment to facilitate those drivers and keep them employed as time goes on.

I would say we are challenged in a number of different areas, and I don't think there's a really simple solution to any of them.

Thank you.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Rodgers.

Mr. Burgan, would you want to comment on that? Is there something in particular that you think of when it comes to labour shortages?

[Omar Burgan]

Again, a trend we're seeing a lot is that newer workers want something different out of their work. They want more work-life balance. That's something we hear a lot.

My colleague, John McCann, was telling a story about someone he knew who had started truck-driving, then realized he was going be away all the time and said, you know what? It's not for me. I'm going to get an office job.

I think finding ways to, again, make it more attractive...because it's a tough job. It can be very hard, especially long hauls. Finding ways to make the work more attractive and for it to evolve with the expectations of workers would be good for the industry.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you.

Mr. Laskowski, today in The Globe and Mail there is a story saying that Loblaws put self-driving delivery trucks on Canadian roads for the first time.

How do we keep that in mind and properly calibrate the number of new employees we train with the extent of the labour shortage and not, for example, inadvertently produce too many truck drivers just as self-driving trucks are becoming more widely deployed? Can these situations be reliably predicted and planned for?

[Stephen Laskowski]

I'll just answer that in short, Mr. Rogers.

I don't think we have to be worried about creating too many truck drivers. Our economy needs them. I don't think we have to worry about that technology you're talking about that's mentioned in The Globe and Mail taking over our industry any time soon, as I answered previously.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

The time is up unfortunately, Mr. Rogers. I know you had an exciting line of questioning planned.

Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, you have the floor for two and half minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Earlier, during the discussion on the underground economy, I thought of Uber, even though it is obviously not exactly the same thing here.

Some smaller trucks only require a modest investment and a regular driver’s license.

Do you think that a type of “trucking Uber” might appear?

How do you see that?

[Omar Burgan]

As a company, Uber does not necessarily have the best reputation for job quality and staff retention.

Some companies don’t use the same model as Uber, but they violate workers’ rights, exploit them and want to get the most profit out of them, at the expense of their well-being.

What we are currently seeing is similar. We really need to implement measures that strengthen enforcement of the rules and ensure no company cheats the system.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Mr. Laskowski, do you have any comment to add?

[Stephen Laskowski]

In my opening remarks, I mentioned that about two-thirds of Canada-U.S. trade is being moved by truck. Virtually everything in the room you're sitting in was on a truck at least once, and probably multiple times. Most of those trucks are 53-foot trailers of various configurations or designs.

Moving forward into the future, this nation will continue to move by truck and 53-foot tractor-trailers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have 10 seconds left, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

All right.

I’m done, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.

Next we have Mr. Bachrach.

The floor is yours. You have two and a half minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'm trying to get a handle on some of these trends that have been described. We've heard a bunch about the conditions of work. We've heard about work-life balance. We've heard about the lack of rest areas, the lack of food services available and the downward pressure on wages and benefits from this underground economy. All of these things seem to be negative aspects of the conditions of work.

At the same time, it was mentioned earlier that driver pay has increased in the past couple of years. I think the number cited was 20% to 30%.

I'm wondering what the net trend is. Are the conditions of work worsening? Are they worse than they were 30 or 40 years ago when you had...? For the drivers who are now retiring and leaving the industry, were the conditions better back in their heyday? Were there truck stops every 10 miles and were they home to see the family every three days, or have the expectations of the workforce changed and the industry is chasing those expectations? Is this simply a tight labour market across the board and throughout the economy?

I'm trying to understand what the specific trend is that we're trying to get some traction on with policy.

[Omar Burgan]

I think it's probably a bit of everything.

When you work in the labour movement, you know that you get the answers by asking workers what they think. That's what we did, and they're telling us that these are the things that are keeping new workers from coming in. These are the worst parts of the job that are getting to where it's at a breaking point.

I'm guessing some of these were way better. For example, we talk about rest stops. It's an infrastructure issue. If the economy moved a certain way so that there are way more trucks on the road—which, from what I understand, is the case—and no one ever took to improving the rest stops for trucks, then you just reach a breaking point. You reach a crisis. I think it's probably a combination of a lot of things.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'll ask Mr. Laskowski the same question, as to his take on the overall direction of the trend when it comes to the conditions of work. Look at a truck driver who was working 40 years ago versus one who's entering the workforce today.

[Stephen Laskowski]

I'm sorry, was that question directed to the CTA?

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Yes, please.

[Stephen Laskowski]

The biggest trend without question—you've heard it from the Teamsters and the CTA—is the unlevel playing field created by not enforcing Driver Inc. You can introduce all the labour laws you want to improve the sector, but if 20% to 30% of the sector is saying, “I'm not following anything you currently have on the books” and you're doing nothing about it, then what does it matter if you add new laws? They're just new laws that they won't follow.

What you're hearing today is that to improve our sector, we're asking you jointly, both labour and the CTA member companies, to enforce the law from CRA and ESDC perspectives. Then we will move our industry forward with better working conditions for all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

Next, we have Mr. Muys.

Mr. Muys, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

I'll ask one question and then share my time with my colleague, Ms. Rood.

We talked about working conditions. Both the freight forwarders and the Teamsters referenced rest areas and the need to use the bathroom. That's obviously a small point, although I would imagine it's a significant frustration on top of other issues. It exacerbates the working conditions.

I know that in Ontario during the pandemic there was a mandate from the provincial government that required businesses receiving deliveries by truck to make their bathroom facilities available to drivers for their use. It seemed like a very practical solution to a problem.

You referenced infrastructure in rest areas. It's not just about washroom facilities, but also, I would imagine, about areas to rest if there's fatigue.

Are there other things—without treading on provincial jurisdiction—that the federal arm can do to alleviate that problem? This is for both the teamsters and the freight forwarders, who mentioned that issue as well.

[Bruce Rodgers]

I'll speak for the freight forwarders.

The groups we're representing are the drayage companies. These are the people who pick up the containers from the rail yards and ports to deliver them ultimately to the importers or exporters, whoever needs those containers.

The reference we were making was to the long lineups due to the congestion issues today. These drivers are sitting there for four, five, six or seven hours. They're basically sitting on the side of the highway, trying to get into a yard in order to pick up a container or drop one off. That's problematic for the industry. It's not necessarily to go into a rest area, because these drivers are just sitting there waiting. It's a problem with the system and the congestion that's going on. I would say from that aspect there's really nothing from a federal perspective that we're looking for.

I'll turn it over to the CTA to offer further comments.

[Stephen Laskowski]

From our perspective, if you're looking for something the federal government could do to assist the drivers, it would be insisting on having more rest areas along federal infrastructure. This is especially for the ELD regulation. That means no more paper logbooks. We're going to move to electronic logbooks. That's something that both the CTA and Teamsters strongly support. It's going to make our roads safer and protect labour.