Transport Committee on Nov. 14th, 2022

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

You say there could be a natural impact. Many witnesses have discussed that so far. People have also said that commercial shipping, the subject of our study today, could also have an impact. Do you know whether there's any scientific basis for such a statement.

[Micheline Lagarde]

I'll let Ms. Durocher answer that question.

[Carine Durocher]

Many studies have been conducted on the link between commercial shipping and erosion. There was Diane Dauphin's study in the 2000s. Those studies showed that commercial shipping had a major impact, accounting for more than 50% of the total impact in places where the channel was close to the shoreline, that is 600 metres from the navigable channel. Speed reduction measures were introduced as a result of those studies, and now recent studies show that, despite the lower speed limit, erosion is still a problem—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Ms. Durocher. There is unfortunately no more time.

Next we have Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses and to my colleague Mr. Barsalou-Duval for bringing forward this study.

Perhaps I'll start with Madame Lagarde. I was reading in a Canadian Press article about your committee's work. The article mentioned that you had tried to get a meeting with the Minister of Transport and were unsuccessful. This was the former Minister of Transport. I wonder whether you've approached the current Minister of Transport and whether you've had any success in gaining an audience with the federal government to discuss your concerns.

[Micheline Lagarde]

I didn't have any success. The answer I got was that he would be happy to meet with me, but that was during a transition period, and then the COVID‑19 pandemic came along. I've since approached him again but, so far, haven't been able to get a meeting.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Madame Lagarde.

This issue of course is a long way away from the riding I represent in northwest British Columbia, but it seems like a very important one. I've listened to the testimony so far and it seems that there is some very important research being done on a wide range of solutions. At the same time, there's some infrastructure already in place that isn't being maintained.

I wonder if your committee.... Looking at this bigger work, which is much more long-term, and then looking at structures that are rusting and falling apart on your doorstep, do you feel that the best option is simply to repair and maintain the existing infrastructure?

[Micheline Lagarde]

In some cases, there's no more existing infrastructure at all, although some structures are holding up and may be worth maintaining. But once water gets into a crack, the ice quickly goes to work and the wall completely falls apart.

We should consider developing green structures in places where no structures are left, but the structures still standing have to be maintained. It may be a question of cost, but something has to be done. Tangible measures must be taken soon. This affects water and biodiversity and has a major impact on citizens who, in some instances, are in dangerous situations. Entire houses are in danger, as Ms. Durocher said.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Madame Lagarde, you indicated previously that you felt as though the responsibility for this issue was being passed back and forth between different jurisdictions, different levels of government. I noted that in that Canadian Press article Transport Canada was drawing people's attention to the fact that the province and the municipalities also have a responsibility. Does it feel as though there's a lack of leadership in this situation?

[Micheline Lagarde]

A lot of departments and agencies may be sharing various responsibilities, and perhaps one of the departments should take charge of the matter as part of a cooperative effort. The problem has to be addressed; someone has to accept responsibility and take appropriate action. But it's like this was no one's fault and no one was responsible. A lot of research is being done, which is all well and good, but, at some point, we have to get results.

A department has to take charge of this matter and introduce environmental, climate change or transport measures. It's possible to work in a collegial manner, not in isolation.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Madame Lagarde.

I'm going to move on to Mr. Lajeunesse.

It's very interesting to hear about your research. We heard about various causes of this erosion that's occurring.

I wonder if your research has given any indication of the relative contribution of each of those causes, whether they are shipping-related or climate-related factors.

[Patrick Lajeunesse]

We're seeing human and anthropic rather than natural phenomena.

From a geographic point of view, we're seeing more erosion on the natural shorelines than on the anthropized shorelines where infrastructure has been built, for example, on Île Marie, near Verchères. There's a lot more erosion along the south bank of the seaway than on the north bank, which has suffered virtually no erosion and still has well-developed wetlands. There has clearly been quite a significant anthropic effect.

The big problem for us is knowing how the natural phenomena and human phenomena, which include shipping, impact the shorelines that have been anthropized and where riprap has been installed. It's not always easy for us to understand that. They have impacts, as the documentation confirms, but how do they affect the shorelines where riprap has been installed?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lajeunesse. There is no more time.

I'd like to inform you that there's no more interpretation.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Yes, Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Maybe we can clear this up.

It sounds like a microphone was on. I believe it was mine, but I'm also under the impression that I don't control my microphone. Should I be pushing the button to turn it off?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

The audio department will take care of your microphone.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Fabulous.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

So there was no translation for the last part.

Mr. Lajeunesse, could you repeat the last 30 seconds of your answer?

[Patrick Lajeunesse]

Yes, Mr. Chair. Let me see where I was.

We're seeing the impacts of shipping on the natural shorelines along the seaway, which are eroded more than the shorelines not along the seaway.Those impacts are quite hard to assess where infrastructure has been built. There isn't a lot of scientific literature on how the shorelines where infrastructure has been built react to erosion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Lajeunesse.

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

Next, we have Mr. Muys.

The floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you, again, Mr. Chair, and thanks to all the witnesses for their testimony here.

Let me pick up on the questioning from Mr. Bachrach of the representatives from Université Laval, who are bringing to us a research perspective. It's important that we have that, as a committee, and that we reflect on research as we consider the study, which is, I will remind everyone, about commercial shipping and its impact on shoreline erosion.

I know there were only 30 seconds in the last question. Is there anything further you want to elaborate on about your research or anything that you didn't have a chance to speak to in your testimony?

[Patrick Lajeunesse]

Of course.

There is one point I would like to address.

We know about erosion, and we recognize the impact of wave action, but those effects are nevertheless hard to assess based on the data we currently have.

The effects on protective infrastructure, which we've been discussing for the past few minutes, are hard to assess, partly because they aren't in perfect condition. They're coming to the end of their useful life and can't really meet present needs. This infrastructure is 50 years old in some cases. It's far from new.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

In consideration of your research, did you look at what other jurisdictions are looking into? Was that factored into the design of what you were studying, if I understand, with the Ministry of the Environment in Quebec? Is there anything that might provide some insight to this committee of what other jurisdictions are doing?

[Patrick Lajeunesse]

Mr. Chair, I'll let Jean-François Bernier say a few words about that.