Transport Committee on Feb. 16th, 2023

[Joel McKay]

Thanks for the question.

From my perspective as somebody who's spent a career in rural development and, previous to that, in the media, it would be nice if the federal government got serious about rural development, full stop. We have not had leadership on that file for half a century, whether it's economic development, transportation, trade or defence. That's the first thing.

The second thing is this: Where I see a federal role is in the interprovincial piece. Jurisdictionally, transportation is, in my view, primarily the responsibility of the provincial governments. That's where the leadership should be coming from. However, the federal government can lead by helping to incentivize the provinces and territories to work together in order to have an integrated system that will travel across provinces.

From a British Columbia perspective, we're already doing this in northern B.C. Our intent is that, within two to three years, what we've built will expand across the entire province. However, our influence and ability end at our borders. It would be really nice to have that integrated with other provinces and, as one of the earlier speakers said, integrated with the U.S. system as well. That's critically important for the movement of people in North America.

That is where federal leadership should come in. It does take leadership. It takes direction, but I don't think it takes a ton of money. You can do these things very effectively by building on solutions that are already operating in jurisdictions throughout Canada, linking them together and enforcing collaboration in the way we've been able to achieve in northern B.C.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. McKay.

I will pick up on the leadership question and the need for interprovincial coordination.

We've had the minister at committee, and we've asked him those questions. He feels very strongly that this lies within the provinces' wheelhouse. However, I imagine you talk to passengers in northern B.C. who need to get to Calgary, Winnipeg or Toronto.

Do we need to see more from the federal government when it comes to pushing those solutions forward, even in the context of provinces that aren't prioritizing this as highly as they should?

[Joel McKay]

Yes, absolutely. From a jurisdictional perspective, every province is going to tell you that it's not going to work beyond its borders. It can't with its tax dollars. That is where the federal government needs to come in and provide some direct leadership if not an incentive, or both, to make sure that the network is integrated.

I would add that in our service area, we have a gap right now: Services go up to Fort Nelson, but we don't have service that extends from Fort Nelson to Watson Lake or up further in the Yukon. The federal government assumes a different level of responsibility for the territorial governments, so when it comes to northern Canada, it should have more of a leadership role than it would with the provinces. That's critically important for getting people around the Yukon, Nunavut or the Northwest Territories and integrating with their provincial counterparts.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. McKay.

My last question is about the multimodal aspect.

We've heard from Dr. Petrunic and others about a vision of integrating rail and bus transportation. You and I both live in northern B.C. We know how challenging it is to use passenger rail for anything other than tourism purposes.

Is integrating passenger rail within the scope of the technology you're trying to implement? Is the potential for multimodal integration in northern B.C. a reality at this point given the inherent challenges Via Rail faces?

[Joel McKay]

It is. We expect that most multimodal integration through the connected network will be live within 12 to 24 months. We're going to start with the 18 transportation services we already have. We're going to expand those to Northern Health Connections—our provincial northern bus ground service—add in Via Rail and B.C. Ferries, and then look to integrate ride-sharing and taxis as well.

The technology exists. It's well established and it's been operating in Europe. Again, in the Canadian context, our transportation environment is far less complex in a sense given how many transportation services are operating in a concentrated area. Our complexity is distance, climate—those types of things. Then, of course, there's the business case around it.

Yes, I absolutely think that is achievable from a technology perspective. The problem with passenger rail is that right now in northern British Columbia, the primary focus for rail is on freight movement. That's great for the economy, but it creates delays—as you know and as I have experienced—in northern B.C. if you are a rail passenger.

Under the existing structure, I do not see a future where rail transportation in western Canada is an affordable and reliable solution for the average citizen with the average household income. It's too expensive and takes too long. The infrastructure is not there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. McKay.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, did you have a question for me?

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I'm just trying to understand something, Mr. Chair. Today, we had witnesses who couldn't participate properly, whom we couldn't ask questions, so I want to know whether the connection tests were done ahead of time for those witnesses and whether the results were adequate for interpretation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Yes, except for Ms. Perry.

For Mr. McKay, unfortunately he couldn't be online for the pre-meeting sound check, so the test was done off-line. When Mr. McKay was finally able to join the meeting, I asked the clerk to do the sound check.

Unfortunately, all kinds of things aren't working in the room today. I heard the clerk say that this room was known for having sound issues. That's why we are going to try to avoid using it from now on.

That was a good question, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.

Ms. Perry, we very much wanted to hear you speak and provide your testimony. I spoke to the clerk, and we have one more meeting scheduled for this study. We already have four witnesses lined up for that, but we always have room for six in a two-hour meeting. We'd very much like to invite you back if you are willing to join us once again and give us two hours of your time, which is very valuable. We will be sending out an invitation to you to join us for that meeting.

I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Lewis, if it's okay, to have the final line of questioning before I thank our witnesses for their time today.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all the witnesses, of course, for your testimony.

There are a couple of things, Dr. Breen, you mentioned that really caught my attention. You talked about the urban-adjacent aspect. Can you tell me the difference between urban-adjacent and what I'm thinking about now, which is rural-adjacent?

To set that question up, and in fairness to you, my riding of Essex is next to Windsor, which is obviously next to the busiest international bridge in North America. A lot of my riding is incredibly rural. We have about five municipalities with around 25,000 folks in each of them, and there's only one bus, to the best of my understanding, in the Leamington-Kingsville area that goes up to the city.

Can you explain the different between urban-adjacent and rural-adjacent? After that, I'm going to jump into the cross-border side of things.

[Dr. Sarah-Patricia Breen]

Yes, certainly. It's a fuzzy definition, as many things out of academia are. An urban-adjacent community would be a rural location from which you would be able to commute to work every day. For example, my brother lives in an urban-adjacent rural community and commutes to Mississauga every day. That's possible for him. I live in the middle of nowhere. It's not possible for me.

In terms of distance, that would typically be anywhere up to 100 or more kilometres. Obviously, with that being fuzzy, we know there are areas in southern Ontario that aren't strictly urban-adjacent even though their proximity might indicate otherwise. It's a combination of distance from urban and the travel patterns of the people who live there.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Dr. Breen. It is a bit fuzzy, but I appreciate the answer for sure.

As I mentioned, it's a very unique riding. I can literally go from rural to urban to large city to what I would like to jump into now: the challenges of the cross-border aspect, so not only intercity but also intercountry and intercity. There are a lot folks who commute from Windsor over to Detroit and vice versa using our bus lines. Can you expand a bit on what would make life simpler for these folks with regard to how our countries work together? I'm not talking about just NEXUS or passports. I'm trying to look at it on a larger scale with regard to the bus lines. Is there something specific we should be looking at and working on?

[Dr. Sarah-Patricia Breen]

I'll defer the opportunity to answer to one of my colleagues. I focus strictly on rural Canada. I don't do the cross-border side, so I don't think I'm the best person to answer.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you.

Dr. Petrunic, would you be able to answer that question?

[Dr. Josipa Petrunic]

Yes. Thank you. It's an excellent question.

Windsor is really at the nexus and the forefront of what international public mobility and public transit should look like. There's a great case study with Transit Windsor. If you get on the Transit Windsor bus, you can hop over the border in a matter of minutes. They have such a good system set up with Detroit on the other side for public transit. Clearly, there were municipal and federal dialogues that allowed for that. It's clean. It's safe. It's efficient. If I got on the previous Greyhound bus, as I used to, to get into Detroit for auto conferences, I'd get stuck for five hours at the border. There was not the same kind of interconnectivity. It was the same border and nearly the same crossing point—they were effectively a few metres apart—but one bus would get stuck for hours and the other had an integrated service.

It is very clear in Canada that the place to start building best practices is the Transit Windsor pattern of behaviour. It is extremely efficient. I've not seen anywhere else in Canada where mobility across the border is that cheap, that fast and that seamless for anybody on a bus. That's a case study to build from.

As I said, it did take federal intervention to make that happen and it went well beyond the capacity and jurisdiction of the city and the province to enable it.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you very much. I appreciate that. I'll make sure that I pass that message on to the mayor of Windsor as well. Kudos to him and his council, and all levels of government.

I know what you're talking about with regard to that bus. Once a year, I get to go over and watch my beloved Detroit Lions play, and I usually take the bus. I always go over with a big smile, but I don't usually have a big smile when I come back.

I appreciate you answering those questions.

Thanks, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lewis. I still respect you even though you're a Lions fan. Go Packers.

I want to conclude by sincerely thanking all of our witnesses for joining us today, and by apologizing for some of the technical issues we've had, specifically to Mr. McKay and Ms. Perry. We look forward to having you back, Ms. Perry. We'll send that invitation out shortly.

With that, I will suspend the meeting for five minutes as we move in camera.

Thank you, everyone.

[Proceedings continue in camera]