Transport Committee on March 28th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chahal.

Thank you, Mr. Guy.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Paquin, in your opening remarks, you said you would like to increase cooperation with other ports, specifically the ports of Montreal, Quebec City and Trois-Rivières. It seems like you have already discussed this among yourselves and want to work together.

Today and during our visits, some of my colleagues got the impression that the ports do not cooperate or work together enough. If I understand correctly, you want to change that.

How would you go about doing that?

How could the committee help you work more effectively together so you can fulfill your ambitions?

[Jacques Paquin]

Thank you for the question.

The port authorities of Montreal, Quebec City and Trois-RIvières did in fact conclude an agreement in June. That agreement was further to another one we had signed a few years earlier with the Montreal port authority only. Last year, we broadened the partnership to include Quebec City.

This agreement allows us to make progress. That progress might not be as noticeable to people from the outside, but I can tell you that our teams are working hard in the three port authorities. We have created working groups that focus specifically on matters of interest to the three organizations, such as the environment, in order to adopt exemplary environmental management practices and so each port shares as much expertise as possible with the other ports.

We also created a working group focusing on marine traffic to facilitate the work of marine carriers. We would like the three ports to follow the same steps so that activities are conducted more smoothly.

So there are four working groups looking at different aspects of our three organizations, but we have reached the limit of what the law allows us to do. We would like to do even more with respect to trade and infrastructure development.

We might even want to be able to invest in neighbouring port facilities, once again to optimize the operations of the St. Lawrence port network as a system. That would require us to collaborate on our development plans and strategic plans in order to get an overview.

Ultimately, we will get a lot more done than each port would able to do on its own. That is why...

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Paquin.

Next we have Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours. You have two and a half minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mayor Pond, you mentioned that one of the key needs when it comes to accommodating expanded port infrastructure is housing.

What currently prevents the port of Prince Rupert from investing directly in housing supply?

[Herbert Pond]

Thank you. My understanding is that it's not possible under their mandate. There's a fairly strict set of rules in terms of what they can and cannot invest in. As I said earlier, in large urban centres, ports, or the Government of Canada with ports, will invest in decongesting, because that's the most immediate need to grow the port.

In Prince Rupert, decongesting the community's not where the money needs to be spent, but our next project may not get off the ground because of a lack of housing. Particularly with the current interest rates, inflation, etc., it's very difficult to attract developers to small, remote communities to basically be pioneers in building new housing.

I have so much in common with Monsieur Paquin, when I'm listening to him. I think there needs to be some flexibility built into that mandate—that ability to move in a slightly different way where the needs are a little bit different. I don't understand the mandate. Even when we're looking at these large infrastructure programs, we need to recognize that what's blocking development, or the choke point for development in the large urban ports, could be a completely different animal in smaller communities hosting these large projects.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you very much, Mayor Pond.

Mr. Hall, I'd like to sneak in a question for you. You spoke in your presentation about the importance of labour in ensuring the smooth functioning of the supply chain, including ports. At a previous meeting, the committee heard a proposal from Mr. Ashton, from the ILWU, that working people should be brought into the conversation about the expansion of our ports by creating a space for them on the boards of port authorities.

What do you think of this proposal?

[Christopher Hall]

I didn't catch that part of the testimony the other day. I think that's an interesting concept. It's certainly worth exploring. My earlier comments notwithstanding, labour is a crucial element of the overall system, and if they're not part of the solutions, then we're missing a very important piece.

To Monsieur Paquin's point earlier, labour is also instrumental in achieving efficiencies. They know how to do their work better than anyone else, so they have great ideas. Having them as part of the development of large projects, I think, would only benefit everyone.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Hall.

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

Next we have Mr. Muys. The floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you.

If I can, I'll direct a question to Mr. Paquin of the Port of Trois-Rivières.

We heard from other ports—and we saw this on our tour of ports the week before last—about the issue of limitations on borrowing capacity, which may constrain your future development plans. You talked in your opening statement about multimodal infrastructure and developing a centre of excellence.

They're all great, forward-looking plans, but are you constrained by the current borrowing capacity and the ability to increase that through the current processes of the federal government?

[Jacques Paquin]

Thank you.

It is indeed a challenge for all port authorities in Canada, including the Port of Trois-Rivières.

Our borrowing limit is $42 million. As I said earlier in my presentation, we are currently working on a portfolio of projects with a value of $350 million. Under its previous plan, the Port of Trois-Rivières had already made substantial investments. Those amounts have been mostly recouped thanks to the growth we have seen, but it is a challenge nonetheless.

We have not mentioned this thus far because we were a bit short on time for our presentation. The fact is that we need to work to increase our borrowing limit. The port projects we are working on do not have any profitability challenges in general. Rather, the challenges relate to funding, owing primarily to our borrowing limit.

It is unfortunate that port authorities' borrowing limits cannot be adjusted quickly in keeping with the profitability of the projects presented. In other words, ports are essentially judged on their past financial achievements to establish borrowing limits for the future.

We would like greater weight to be given to the projects presented and the profits they will generate, and for the borrowing limits to be adjusted in accordance with the quality of those undertakings.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you.

That is helpful, because what I'm hearing, and what I've heard from others, is about the ability to access capital to expand. If you have a good business case whereby there's going to be a good return on investment, you're handcuffed at the moment. You've indicated some of your projects have that ability and the frustration that you haven't been able to pursue those.

Thank you for that.

I'll ask Mr. Guy this, because we ran out of time in the last iteration. Among your members.... Obviously, at the Chamber of Commerce, you're talking about lots of issues—labour shortages, taxes and a whole host of things—and you are mindful of what's going to happen at four o'clock today, of course.

Where do supply chain constraints fit within that conversation? Where do they rank and what is the tenor of the conversation you are hearing from your members about that?

[Robin Guy]

I cited a StatsCan report. For those who haven't had the chance to take a look at it, I would suggest it is a worthwhile read. There is a significant number of businesses that still identify supply chains as a crisis. It was along the lines of nearly a quarter of Canadian businesses surveyed that said supply chains are still an issue. It's not only that they're still an issue, but that they foresee their continuing to be an issue looking forward.

In terms of the members, it's difficult to give you a percentage on that, but I can tell you that I deal with supply chains on a regular basis.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

It's still in the top few issues, without a doubt.

[Robin Guy]

That's correct.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

You foresee that to continue for some time.

[Robin Guy]

Yes. As I mentioned, we're seeing, from where things were at the height of the pandemic to now, that there has definitely been an improvement, but it still remains a challenge for the current and foreseeable future.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Muys.

Thank you, Mr. Guy.

Finally for today, we have Mr. Iacono.

Mr. Iacono, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being with us this morning.

My questions are for Mr. Paquin, from the Port of Trois-Rivières.

Mr. Paquin, you are the star today.

Can you tell us more about the project announced in June 2022 to create closer cooperation between your port and the ports of Montreal and Quebec City?

[Jacques Paquin]

That agreement has already produced a structure, that is, we have established working groups. First, we created a steering committee, which oversees all measures resulting from this agreement. Made up of members of senior management from the three port authorities, this steering committee then created working groups to ensure that the three entities develop ties relating to the very structure of the three organization so they can work together more easily. This also involves setting priorities and identifying methods to help them achieve more together than what they could individually.

So that is our objective. It is not easy of course, and we are still three separate organizations. We do need to find ways to develop ties amongst ourselves. Things are improving steadily, and people are working more and more closely together. The groups have already produced results. For example, we are currently working on standardized procedures for receiving ships at the three ports, which will allow the ships to circulate more easily. We are even implementing a shared communications tool for the three ports so that shipping agencies and marine carriers can use the same tool when registering at a port. Once again, we are trying to simplify matters for owners and carriers.

The purpose of all of this is really to make traffic flow more smoothly and improve the supply chains through the three ports. To do that, we have to share our best practices and be as effective as possible together. That is the objective we have set for ourselves. There are four very specific groups working on ways of achieving that.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

I am pleased to hear about your objectives, which are positive.

Are there currently any legislative or regulatory impediments to that type of cooperation?

If so, what are they?

[Jacques Paquin]

The Canada Marine Act does not pose any obstacles to what we are doing currently, because we are cooperating on a very functional level.

That would not be the case however if we wanted to go further and look at trade issues. For instance, if we wanted to look at optimizing our infrastructures and sharing our strategic plans and development plans, and try to establish a strategic plan that reflects the strengths and weaknesses of each of the three facilities to make the network more effective as a whole, we could not do that. That is prohibited.

If we had a collective wish, it would be to be allowed to go further. I would say simply that the Canada Marine Act was enacted initially to force competition rather than cooperation among port authorities. That is why it is so limiting in that regard.

Right now, we could do better. The only option currently available under the act is merger. We are not at that point. We would like to continue working together. Asto a merger, we can talk about that later on. Right now, we are very limited by the act. We are doing whatever we can within the confines of the act. We are getting results already, but we would have to move forward on a strategic vision for the development of the network.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have 30 seconds, Mr. Iacono.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you very much.

I will stop here.