Evidence of meeting #62 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communities.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kelly Gillis  Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
Erin Lynch  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Communities and Infrastructure Programs, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 62 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, February 16, 2023, the committee is meeting to discuss Main Estimates 2023‑24 and the subject matter of Supplementary Estimates (C), 2022‑23.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of Thursday, June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person and remotely using the Zoom application.

For the benefit of our interpreters, all witnesses joining us online today have been sound tested.

With us today, from the Office of Infrastructure Canada, we have Glenn Campbell, senior assistant deputy minister, investment partnerships and innovation; Michelle Baron, acting assistant deputy minister and chief financial officer, corporate services branch; Erin Lynch, associate assistant deputy minister, communities and infrastructure programs; and Ms. Kelly Gillis, deputy minister.

We will begin with opening remarks.

For that, I will turn it over to you, Ms. Gillis. You have five minutes.

11:05 a.m.

Kelly Gillis Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for the invitation to speak with you today on Infrastructure Canada's Main Estimates 2023‑24 and Supplementary Estimates (C), 2022‑23.

As you know, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Infrastructure and Communities, Hon. Dominic LeBlanc, will be joining us for the second half of the meeting.

My remarks today will be very brief.

I am joined by colleagues who were previously introduced.

Our supplementary estimates (C) sought a net increase of $7.7 million, of which $7.5 million is for the final P3 Canada fund payment for the Tłı̨chǫ all-season road, which reached substantial completion. The remainder is for some small transfers to other organizations to support information technology and bridge expertise.

Our 2023-24 estimates seek $9.6 billion for infrastructure that helps build strong communities, fights climate change and strengthens our communities, including through the invest in Canada program, the permanent public transit program and the Canada community-building fund.

My colleagues and I will be happy to answer any questions you have today.

Again, thank you for inviting me to appear before the committee.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Thank you very much, deputy minister.

We'll begin our lines of questioning today with Mr. Davidson.

Mr. Davidson, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Scot Davidson Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's great to be back on the transportation and infrastructure committee this morning. Hello to all of my colleagues.

Since I'm here, I'd like to move my motion that was tabled on February 13, 2023, concerning the need to study the dumping of fill on aerodrome construction sites in Canada.

I'll read the motion, Mr. Chair:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities study the Canadian Aviation Regulations pertaining to aerodrome work, with particular focus on: (a) issues that have arisen when individuals and corporations use the pretense of building an aerodrome to lucratively dump fill without regard for municipal and provincial soil laws, including environmental and jurisdictional concerns; (b) the consultation process, including the obligation of proponents to notify interested parties, including municipalities and First Nations communities when aerodrome work is undertaken; (c) the scope of Transport Canada’s review of the Summary Report submitted prior to aerodrome work, including the power granted to the Minister to prohibit aerodrome activity; and (d) what opportunities exist for parties adversely affected by aerodrome developments to raise their concerns with Transport Canada and the responsible Minister.

This requires urgent study. It is very urgent for my community, and I'd like to lay out the comprehensive reasons why.

So that the committee understands, all of the information I'm about to present has been communicated to Transport Canada and the Minister of Transport. There has been no action taken to date.

In the coming months, a general aviation aerodrome was set to be built in my community of Georgina, Ontario, in the small but mighty town of Pefferlaw. The legislative consultation process is now concluded, as has Transport Canada's direct involvement under the Canadian aviation regulations, CARs, from here on.

Despite this, there remain significant concerns that the proponents of this, New Aerodrome Ontario 2021, referred to as the Baldwin east aerodrome project, are using the federally regulated process as a mean to dump significant amounts of soil and fill on the properties of 7818 and 7486 Old Homestead Road. According to the proponent's own disclosures, they plan to dump 1.2 million cubic metres of fill, or 120,000 truck loads, on the site, generating between $12 million and $18 million in revenue.

This practice has already taken place in other communities throughout Ontario, including Greenbank airport, and aerodromes in Scugog, Tottenham and Burlington. In 2014, media reports revealed that federally regulated aerodromes, such as Greenbank airport, were being used as dumping grounds for contaminated dirt and soil. In these cases, federal jurisdiction over aerodrome land was being used to circumvent municipal and provincial soil rules.

At that time, requirements for aerodromes, under part III of the CARs, related only to registered aerodromes or licensed airports. Aerodromes that did not meet the requirements would not be included in Transport Canada publications, but they would not cease to be aerodromes, and, consequently, would remain exclusively within federal government jurisdiction. There is no mechanism for Transport Canada to disallow the establishment of an aerodrome.

In such instances, the dumping of soil occurs under the pretense of expanding or developing an aerodrome, but once that fill is deposited on site, it has now become financially lucrative for proponents. We need to understand that there's a new term: it's now called “cash cropping fill”. That wasn't around 30 years ago.

No further work is undertaken related to the aerodrome itself. The properties become abandoned, and municipalities discover that much of the tonnes of dumped soil is contaminated, which requires significant redemption at a cost to taxpayers and to our environment.

In response to the Greenbank Airport incident, Parliament approved section 143 of the Economic Action Plan 2014 Act, No. 2, which amended the Aeronautics Act to require consultations and allow the Minister of Transport to make an order prohibiting an aerodrome activity or development if it is unsafe or “not in the public interest”. Let me say that again—“not in the public interest”.

This was done so that these sorts of incidents couldn't happen again, but now we are where we are in my community. This has not worked out.

The gatekeepers and bureaucrats at Transport Canada don't care about the many issues surrounding these sorts of proposals, even though significant concerns like those relevant at the Greenbank Airport remained unaddressed. Worse still, the minister has no obligation to act—zero—even when overwhelming evidence is presented to him.

The aforementioned dumping of soil is of foremost concern to residents in my community close to the GTA. One of the proponents, Wilf Goldlust, also owns Triwaste Services and Trillium Recovery, which is subject to a director's order in 2015 proceedings from the Ontario Ministry of the Environment related to illegal fill dumping on a former rail line in Haldimand County. Goldlust was represented by the main proponent, Maurizio Marchioni, during these proceedings.

Despite being built on provincially significant wetlands, a groundwater recharge area, highly vulnerable aquifers and woodlands within the Lake Simcoe watershed, if you can imagine, the aerodrome has been designed to specifically avoid a required assessment by the Environmental Agency of Canada. This is another workaround. The proposed runway lanes are 991 metres, or 3,250 feet, but the agency only considers projects relating to the construction of aerodromes with runways of over 1,000 metres. So here we have a proponent putting out two runways at 991 metres to avoid an environmental assessment.

Both the construction and operation of an aerodrome at this location will have a serious impact on the local environment. In addition, the distinct lack of a business case, and care, for an aerodrome in this area reinforces the impression that the proponents don't actually intend to operate one once dumping a fill has concluded. Prospective pilots—I'm a pilot as well, so I know about these issues and I know about these issues with airports—have numerous and local area concerns. Those concerns are even if Buttonville closes.

Moreover, the proposed lanes of the two paved runways are too short for commercial traffic. Large aircraft that usually utilize instrument landing systems will not be able to do so, meaning that only small aircraft will be able to make use of this aerodrome, significantly limiting economic viability. An airport, if they want to have commercial activity or any viable business plan, is required to have a runway of at least 5,000 feet so that they can put in an ILS.

It's also notable, and this is very strange, that the direction of the runways don't favour northwest prevailing winds, and therefore will lead to unfavourable landing conditions for most pilots, who will constantly look to land elsewhere. As such, the proposed aerodrome lacks significant demand or capabilities to be suitable for recreation or commercial air traffic.

The site of the proposed aerodrome is in a rural area with limited or non-existent access to the required services or infrastructure, meaning there is no water, no sewers, no natural gas and no phase three power.

This is out in an environmentally sensitive area, out in rural Georgina. It's not zoned as commercial. Both of the nearby roads, Morning Glory and Stoney Batter, are insignificant for increased heavy traffic, particularly during the prolonged construction process. These are basically tar and chip roads.

There's also a distinct lack of servicing for the water, sewage and power in the area that would be required should the aerodrome be approved and begin operation. When asked about the business case for this proposal, the proponents refused to answer, saying it was none of the community's business how they planned to operate. Can you imagine someone building an airport and telling the community that it's none of their business to ask these questions?

Finally, the widespread opposition to this proposal across the community needs to be acknowledged. To be clear, the vast majority of this opposition is not from individuals opposed to aerodrome in and of itself. After all, there are many around the area. We have Lindsay. We have Peterborough. There are grass strips in Uxbridge. We have Lake Simcoe Regional Airport. We have Barrie airport.

As an indication of how widespread this opposition in my community is, more than 97% of those participating in the consultation process were against it. E-petition 4213 calling for this project to be denied closed with 2,026 signatures, and we are awaiting a response from government.

This little community of Pefferlaw... I told you it's mighty. There are 3,000 people here, and I can assure you that, if you look at the signatures on the e-petition, the vast majority are from this little community. The town of Georgina, the Lake Simcoe Regional Conservation Authority and the Regional Municipality of York have expressed opposition to or concerns about the project, and the Federation of Canadian Municipalities has issued a resolution expressing concerns about aerodromes being approved so developers can just dump contaminated fill, with municipalities unable to enact their bylaws.

The local first nation, the Chippewas of Georgina Island, whom I am proud to represent.... It is very unusual for first nations to do this, to bring this to the minister's attention. They issued a band council resolution, and I'd like to read this to you. This is band council resolution 02-02-23-1036, from the Chippewas of Georgina Island first nation:

Do hereby resolve: 1. Whereas the construction of a general aviation Aerodrome 'Baldwin East' has been proposed for the property at 7818 and 7486 Old Homestead Rd. and received approval from Transport Canada; 2. And whereas the provisions of the Canadian Aviation Regulations Part III, subpart 307 require that any new aerodrome proposal engage in a consultation process with the local community, but do not require a duty to consult impacted first nations; we insist consultation is addressed with the impacted First Nations; 3. And whereas it is recommended that any proponent seeking a new aerodrome engage in non-mandatory pre-consultation process with the key stakeholders, including local municipalities, in advance of the required consultation process; and whereas Transport Canada has a constitutional duty to consult First Nations when their proposed conduct has potential to adversely impact the First Nations rights; 4. And whereas the aerodrome's proponents did not engage with the Chippewas of Georgina Island in any meaningful or recommended non-mandatory pre-consultation process in advance of the required consultation process; 5. And whereas numerous environmental concerns have been raised about the impact of the aerodrome and related fill dumping will have, including the Lake Simcoe ecosystem; 6. And whereas the proposed aerodrome is on the traditional lands of the Chippewas of Georgina Island, and whereas the proposed aerodrome has the potential to adversely impact the Georgina Island First Nation aboriginal and treaty rights.

Therefore let it be resolved that the Chippewas of Georgina Island First Nation oppose the aerodrome project moving forward. And demand that Transport Canada consult with them on any proposed aerodrome project that they may have an adverse impact on our rights.

Since the CARs were amended in 2014, there have been two uses of the powers granted to the minister to deny the establishment of an aerodrome from proceeding. In 2020, the Minister of Transport issued an order prohibiting the development of an aerodrome in the municipality of Saint-Roch-de-l’Achigan. It was an instance where the proponent had been sent a letter from then-minister Garneau, which outlined serious shortcomings in the demonstration of the economic benefits of the project, while noting the strong opposition from residents.

The other usage of the power was in 2015 when a proposed aerodrome in Mascouche and the Terrebonne was initially approved following Transport Canada's consultation process. The municipalities and the Government of Quebec argued against its approval, citing incompatibility of the project with the minister of the environment guidelines, and the minister prohibited the development thereafter.

Despite all this, Transport Canada continues to maintain that they only look at the aeronautic legitimacy of a proposal. Other considerations, including the viability of a project, local opposition, the background of the proponents and the likelihood of a soil dumping endeavour, etc., all fall outside the remit of this process.

Colleagues, this is a growing problem that we're now facing. It can become an environmental catastrophe for communities. We are here as members of Parliament. I know everyone in this room is here to stick up for their constituents. This is a clear case of the government not listening and the government working badly for Canadians.

I would hope, due this being a growing problem across the country that needs to be seriously looked at.... A study by the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities will help address these issues.

I think by providing more clarity on the scope of the problem and some solutions that we can give government to correct this legislation, communities like mine and all Canadians can be heard and...the process works for them.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Thank you very much, Mr. Davidson.

If there are no objections, I would move for unanimous consent to adopt the motion.

(Motion agreed to)

Well done, Mr. Davidson.

We will move on.

Mr. Davidson, the floor is still yours to ask the questions that you perhaps wanted to ask the members. If not, we can move on to Mr. Chahal, who has been waiting with bated breath.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Scot Davidson Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

Before Mr. Chahal—I know he's waiting—I'm going to turn the remainder of my time over to—

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

I think you can use your time for the motion.

We'll just go to Mr. Chahal, if that's fine. Then we'll go through the regular motions.

Thank you, Mr. Davidson.

With that, we'll turn the floor over to Mr. Chahal for six minutes.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

George Chahal Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB

First of all, thank you for your opening remarks and for joining us today at our infrastructure committee.

I think there's a lot of important and great work that the department has done.

I want to focus my first question on.... There has been a tremendous impact from disasters across the country and several in my communities in my province of Alberta.

Can you provide us an update on the disaster mitigation and adaptation fund that was announced in 2018?

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

With that particular fund, which is a really important opportunity to invest in our communities and make our public infrastructure more resilient, to date we've approved approximately 100 projects to the tune of $2.2 billion. Actually, right now, we have an open intake on that particular program which closes in July. Communities can avail themselves of further investments to be able to make their communities more resilient.

As part of the national adaptation strategy, this particular program was topped up by almost $500 million. That's part of the open intake that's going on right now. We do hope that communities will avail themselves of it to make their communities more resilient.

Making your community more resilient is not just to make investments in capital, in infrastructure, although that is very important. As part of our work that's been ongoing, and then increased and accelerated as part the national adaptation strategy, we have also invested in things like codes and standards, that is, tools to help communities know what work needs to get done on their infrastructure to make it more resilient.

We've been working very very closely with the National Research Council and with the Standards Council of Canada to be able to provide more knowledge and information on how we build in our communities going forward. The investment certainly in DMAF, the disaster mitigation and adaptation fund, is very important. There are investments that are going on to over $2 billion right now. There will be more investments to almost a billion dollars once that particular intake closes in July and further investment decisions are made.

Then we will have ongoing work on codes, standards, research, knowledge and support to communities to understand how they can make their communities more resilient.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

George Chahal Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB

Thank you for that update.

In the province of Alberta, we've seen delays in a number of projects like the Springbank Off-stream Reservoir because our provincial Conservative government has wanted to re-review projects that that have been approved. We had a major, disastrous hailstorm in my constituency of Calgary Skyview, with over $1.5 billion in damage. We saw the provincial Conservative government not support our communities with cleanup and rebuilding.

How do we ensure...and what is our role to step in? Have we considered or looked at supporting municipalities and communities when provincial governments don't support or fund disaster relief in communities?

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

For our disaster mitigation and adaptation fund, that particular program is not going through provinces and territories. It is open to all orders of government to apply directly to Infrastructure Canada. There isn't a reliance on prioritization by orders of government to come to us. Similar to the infrastructure program for our invest in Canada program, this particular program does allow communities to look at their priorities and to come to us with an investment application. That is one really important project.

Also through the FCM, we have an asset management program and a climate change innovation program that communities can apply to directly to give them technical competencies and capabilities to understand how they can protect their assets better, and also, specifically for climate change, on the kinds of innovations they have to make to their infrastructures to make them more resilient. Again, those are applications that communities make directly to the FCM, who are managing these particular programs on our behalf.

Actually, what we have seen in communities is that just a few years ago, in 2016, only 7% of them took resilience into consideration in their asset management plans. Now we see a large percentage who do. We've seen a change in behaviour through these particular programs, which is really important.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

George Chahal Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB

Thank you for that.

Has the Canada Infrastructure Bank considered...?

You've done a lot of great work across the country in supporting municipalities through public transit, clean power, green infrastructure and so many great projects in my city and region. Have we looked at considering or expanding the mandate of the Canada Infrastructure Bank to do more?

11:30 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

Actually in budget 2023, the Canada Infrastructure Bank was expanded specifically in the area of clean...and clean transition and clean electricity. As we look at the challenges to transition to net-zero 2050, the Canada Infrastructure Bank I think is an important tool. It's one tool in the tool box, but an important one. There we have looked at...and they have been directed through the budget to increase their work in these particular areas. They had particular targets lower. They've been given targets of $10 billion in each of these particular areas.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Thank you very much, Mr. Chahal.

Mr. Garon, go ahead for six minutes.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for joining us today.

You are probably familiar with the municipality of Sainte-Marthe-sur‑le‑Lac, which experienced extremely significant flooding in 2019: 600 homes were flooded. That was a major incident in my constituency.

At the time of the climate change adaptation of infrastructure projects, the government committed to cover 40% of the $51‑million cost of rebuilding and expanding the dike under the federal program. I have seen the documentation. So it was 40% of $51 million, or $20.4 million, for the City of Sainte-Marthe-sur‑le‑Lac. However, for purely administrative reasons, which are not reasons of non-compliance, the department flip-flopped and decided to pay only half of the amount. So the City of Sainte-Marthe-sur‑le‑Lac was deprived of more than $10 million, which is huge for a municipality of its size. Consequently, the Quebec government had to give $10.2 million of public money, from Quebec taxpayers, to the municipality to enable it to adapt to climate change.

Is the department considering how this money will be returned to Quebec taxpayers?

11:30 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

Mr. Chair, I thank the member for his question.

I don't know the details of the project you just talked about. But I do know that, for projects like that one, we have different types of programs that enable us to share costs with the provinces and territories.

We just provided $33 billion under bilateral agreements through the investing in Canada infrastructure program, a program that funds cost-shared projects with the provinces and territories.

The program I mentioned to Mr. Chahal is not like that, as it is not cost-shared with the provinces and territories. However, communities still have the option of working with the provinces to have the provinces share in the cost of a project.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC

Thank you.

I am familiar with that program. However, Ottawa had committed to provide some $20 million. The dike had to be rebuilt extremely quickly, as the potential impact was major, but for purely administrative reasons, Ottawa decided to cut the money in half.

Is there any openness within the department to enable the Quebec taxpayer to have the same treatment under the same program as any other taxpayer in any other province?

That is my question.

11:30 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

Thank you.

The eligibility requirements for all our programs are the same across Canada, and we apply the same rules everywhere. I don't know what the administrative problems or administrative changes were in the case of the project you mentioned. However, I do know that the compliance requirements and conditions are the same across the country. Quebec has been treated the same as any other part of the country would have been in the same situation.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC

As you are unfamiliar with the case, I understand that there is clearly no question in the department of treating the taxpayers of Sainte-Marthe-sur‑le‑Lac equally.

Thank you very much.

I have a question about something else. In the context of the construction of the Réseau express métropolitain, or REM, which will be extended to the Montreal airport, we know that the REM project is moving forward, but we still don't have a precise timeline for the work on the branch that will lead to the Montreal airport.

I would like to know if you could give us more details on the progress of the project. We are all looking forward to going to the airport using the REM. What is the specific date?

11:35 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

Thank you again for your question.

Investments in the REM project, which is very important for Montreal, are not made by the Office of Infrastructure of Canada. They come partly from the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec and partly from the Canada Infrastructure Bank. They are the ones who could provide you with an update on the project.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC

Thank you very much.

I have a question about the gas tax fund, which is about to expire. I would like to know if the department is considering renewing the fund and, more importantly, if you anticipate any changes in the way it operates. If so, what are they?

11:35 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

Thank you again for your question.

The 10‑year agreement for this program will end in March 2024. We are currently discussing what the program will look like if it is renewed. In terms of changes, it is too early to answer you, as we are currently in discussions with the provinces, territories, communities and others about what the program needs and what changes may be made if we renew it in 2024.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC

The program is in its final year. The department is engaged in reflections and work. We know that we ultimately want to achieve net-zero emissions. We also know that gas-powered vehicles will no longer be available for purchase as of 2035. This will impact gas tax revenues. Yet the federal gas tax fund represents a significant portion of our municipalities' revenues.

Has any forecasting been done within the department as to how the shift to net-zero emissions will impact this fund?

11:35 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

Thank you.

The connection between the gas tax and the fund disappeared a number of years ago. That's why we renamed it the Canada community-building fund a few years ago.

There is no relationship between gas tax collection and the fund. This year, the fund is $2.4 billion, and indexation is 2%. For every $100‑million increase, the amount and distribution of funding changes.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Thank you very much, Mr. Garon.

Thank you very much, Deputy Minister Gillis.

It is now Mr. Bachrach's turn.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.