Transport Committee on April 18th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Once again, we are happy to have you with us in committee.

We'll begin our line of questioning today with Dr. Lewis.

Dr. Lewis, I'll turn the floor over to you. You have six minutes.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Thank you, Minister, for attending today.

According to the infrastructure department's plan, projected departmental expenses are going up by $2 billion in this fiscal year when compared with spending in 2022 and 2023. That would represent a 25% increase in planned spending from the year before. In addition, it would represent an increase of 75% in the department's budget from just three years ago. To put it in dollar figures, you are planning to drive up spending by $2 billion this fiscal year and within three years, the department has increased its planned spending by $4.1 billion.

That's a massive increase and this increase is coming at a time when Canadians are struggling with groceries or struggling with bills. It seems extremely disconnected from the Canadian public and out of touch with fiscal reality.

My question to you is, when everybody else is tightening up and Canadians are facing such financial stress, do you think it's fair to plan a massive increase of your department's spending, in the sum of billions, which will increase the inflationary pressures on Canadians?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Chair, through you to Dr. Lewis, thank you for the question.

I certainly share your concern about fiscal responsibility and about understanding that Canadians, as you said, are feeling economic pressures in their family budgets and in their daily lives.

I think it's important, and perhaps the deputy can add some detail to what I think is a basic principle.... You're right, there has been an increase in the expenditures, but the grants and contributions that our department is putting out are, to a very considerable extent, investing with partner governments and community organizations. If it's a transit system.... A lot of this is cash flow on a big, ten-year transit project. In certain fiscal years, certain amounts of money will be available and that would be reflected, obviously, in these detailed estimates.

I think your concern—and I would share it—is that these expenditures have to be on projects that benefit Canadians and their communities, that fight climate change and that improve transit. A very small percentage of that expenditure, of course, would be administrative or overhead.

This is money put into community—

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I'd like to speak about that. We do have limited time.

The $35-billion Infrastructure Bank has yet been unable to complete any projects. The bank actually spent $24 million on employee salaries and bonuses and did not even spend half that amount on infrastructural projects.

How do you justify spending double the amount on employee salaries and bonuses rather than on infrastructure projects?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Chair, the views of Dr. Lewis on the Infrastructure Bank are well known. It won't surprise you or colleagues that I don't share her pessimism with respect to the Infrastructure Bank.

I think the Infrastructure Bank—and I've shared that with the board chair and the CEO—has been in previous years slow to ramp up and to be able to point to, for example, the 43 investment commitments that they have made—27 of which have reached final close. These are complicated financial transactions, which is precisely why the government created the Infrastructure Bank.

I've been an opposition MP, too, Mr. Chair. It's easy to say that no projects have been completed. We can play with the word “completed”. I can tell you that premiers across the country and mayors, including those of some of the big cities in the country, have talked to me about the importance of this financing vehicle.

I hope that colleagues have taken note—

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I'm not concerned with the importance.... I'm disputing the efficacy of the bank, which this committee has already given notice about. This committee has recommended that the bank be abolished. I'm wondering why you are not respecting the wishes of this committee that the bank be abolished because of its unproductive nature.

That is not my conclusion; it is the conclusion of this committee.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

It's not a conclusion that the government shares. We think the bank can be improved and strengthened. It shouldn't be abolished. We would disagree with that conclusion. That shouldn't surprise anybody.

In fact, in the budget that was tabled last month, we indicated that we were giving a direction to the bank in terms of investing more in clean energy projects and in projects that would allow indigenous partners to take equity positions in large infrastructure projects.

We think there's a very useful and positive role for the bank, but we share some legitimate frustrations in terms of its ramp-up. The good news is that we think that's behind them.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

We share those frustrations, because in 2021 and 2022 the bank managed to spend 35% more on salaries and bonuses than the year before while spending less on infrastructural programs. It is clear from these numbers that salaries and bonuses are the primary focus of this bank and not the development of infrastructure for the benefit of taxpayers who are funding this bank.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Again, that's a slogan that you, Dr. Lewis, can use. I focus on the Canada Infrastructure Bank's approved investments of $8.6 billion, which have attracted $7.9 billion in private equity and institutional capital. So at a time when the bank is ramping up to pursue the ambitious mandate that our government wants it to pursue, staffing costs have increased in a very modest amount compared with the $8.6 billion in approved investments.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I'm going to ask for the last word on this, because—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Unfortunately, there's no time left.

We barely had enough time to get your last sentence in there, Mr. Minister.

We will go now to Mr. Chahal.

Mr. Chahal, you have six minutes. The floor is yours.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Minister, thank you for joining us today and providing opening remarks.

I think Infrastructure Canada and the Canada Infrastructure Bank are doing some great work across Canada. I've seen the benefits in my city of Calgary and throughout the province of Alberta, with numerous projects that are going to benefit municipalities and communities.

I want to start by talking about public transit and the importance of our government's investment in the Green Line.

Minister, can you tell this committee how this project will make transit more accessible in my city and surrounding communities?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Chahal, you have been an effective advocate for the infrastructure needs in the great city of Calgary. You and I have had numerous conversations, whether about the museum project we announced together some months ago or the extension of this important transit infrastructure with partners in other orders of government.

This is precisely the kind of investment that we believe will unlock greater housing opportunities for people in a city like Calgary, which, as you would know better than I, has faced significant housing pressures. There's an environmental climate change effect of having more people using accessible, affordable and effective public transit.

We continue, Mr. Chahal, to look at opportunities where we can partner with the City of Calgary and the Province of Alberta.

My discussions with the infrastructure minister and the transportation minister from your province have been very constructive and encouraging. I had a conversation with Premier Smith about infrastructure opportunities as recently as a few weeks ago.

We think we're just getting going. The permanent public transit funding, which as you know is $3 billion coming on stream in a couple of years, will give us an opportunity to make long-term commitments with the City of Calgary and other partners to continue to advance exactly that kind of project.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Minister, for that.

I want to go on to talk about another important project or investment we've made. We know that the Calgary Stampede is coming very soon. It's the greatest outdoor show on earth.

Minister, I hope you can come to visit and attend and maybe take a tour of the BMO Centre, which is being expanded. There is the importance of that conference and convention facility to the revitalization of the city of Calgary, and there's the importance of tourism after the challenges we faced with COVID-19. Could you talk about the importance of that investment?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Again, Mr. Chahal, there is a perfect example where the greatest outdoor show on earth, which is the Calgary Stampede, attracts hundreds of millions of dollars of investment. I've had conversations with the former mayor of Calgary, with the current mayor and with former Premier Kenney about the importance of that BMO infrastructure. There again, the Government of Canada has been a partner with the city and the Stampede itself. The province has been a long-time proponent of this important event.

You've highlighted, Mr. Chahal, an example where we think the Government of Canada has to play a role in building accessible community infrastructure that drives a sustainable economy. And in your city, that particular annual event....

You're right about the COVID period. I remember conversations with then Premier Kenney about restarting the Stampede and how important it was for the Alberta and Calgary economy. So why wouldn't the Government of Canada share some of the infrastructure costs that make an event as important as this possible?

The first time I got cowboy boots and a cowboy hat, Mr. Chahal, was when I was working as a young assistant for Mr. Chrétien. Your brother was a colleague of mine in the Prime Minister's Office then, and we were at the Calgary Stampede together. So my attachment to that event goes back decades, including with your brother.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Minister.

Put on your boots and come back to join me at the Calgary Stampede. We can have some fun and see some of the great projects that you've helped bring forward.

Minister, can you speak about the progress the Canada Infrastructure Bank has made since your last visit to our committee, and talk about where you see the Infrastructure Bank going moving forward?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

As I've said previously at this committee, and we've said publicly in question period, the Infrastructure Bank was, in our view, slow to ramp up in making investment decisions and making investment opportunities available to partners.

The good news is, as I said in my response to Dr. Lewis, your colleague, that it's well under way in making significant investment decisions, including in big and small projects across the country. We have, in the recent budget, asked it to focus on things like indigenous equity, which might provide, in a province like yours, Mr. Chahal, an opportunity for indigenous partners to be equity partners in resource projects and infrastructure developments that are key, perhaps, to future energy or natural resource projects.

If I think about Atlantic Canada, the Atlantic loop is an area where I know it's working with Atlantic provinces, and, of course, we're going to focus increasingly on greening the electricity grids. The Infrastructure Bank will be playing an enhanced role in that.

I see, unfortunately, that the chair is indicating we're sadly out of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chahal, and thank you, Minister.

Mr. Garon, you now have the floor for six minutes.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for joining us.

Recently, you've made several announcements related to public transit projects, particularly in Quebec. It's hard not to notice that the Outaouais region has been somewhat forgotten.

You know your files, and you are not unaware that there is a tramway project that has been getting a lot of press. This project is supported by all levels of government, by the National Capital Commission and by your colleague the member of Parliament for Hull—Aylmer.

I saw you come in earlier, Minister. I thought you looked very healthy and in good spirits. It seems to me that it would be a good day to confirm to us that the government is supportive of the project and to tell us when the project will be started.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Chair, I thank the member for his kind comments about my health. He is right; I am feeling very well. In fact, this week, I am scheduled to go to Maisonneuve-Rosemont Hospital, located in Quebec, for a checkup—I have to have one every six months. They saved my life at that hospital.

As for the Gatineau project, you are absolutely right. The Gatineau tramway is a project that we share with the Quebec government and that will be done jointly with the Quebec government. I would have liked to have been with Minister Guilbault in the Outaouais region last week, I believe, but it was not possible to align our schedules, sometimes because of her schedule, sometimes because I was in another part of the country.

That said, we continue to support that project. A revised funding request was submitted to the department on March 25 in connection with the planning of the project. We will be announcing it soon.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Concerning the funding, the project office tells us that it is the eleventh hour. This is a major project.

Will an announcement be made on this soon?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I hope so, but we need to be specific. The project in question is related to financial support for planning activities.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Are we talking about a project office?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

That's not a term we use. For us, it's a planning and engineering exercise, among others, to prepare for the capital investment that will come. However, I understand and share your impatience. I am personally optimistic that I will soon be across the river with a colleague from the Quebec government and our colleagues from the Outaouais.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Were you in government in 2017 when the talk about the project began?