Evidence of meeting #68 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cib.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
That's not a point of order. What I will do is simply remind all colleagues, for the benefit of our interpreters, that we do not speak over each other, and we also ensure that we let the witnesses respond.
That's a reminder to all colleagues.
Dr. Lewis, I stopped your time. You still have a minute left.
Conservative
Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON
Thank you. I have the floor.
As I was saying, it's interesting how early on, right at the beginning, McKinsey could say it had an intimate understanding of the CIB. I'm not speaking about McKinsey's general knowledge. I'm speaking about the specific comment that said it had an intimate understanding of the CIB.
Where did that intimate, deep understanding come from?
Senior Partner, McKinsey & Company
The Canada Infrastructure Bank was stood up through an act of Parliament in 2017. It was public record. It went through parliamentary hearings. Knowledge of the Infrastructure Bank was in the public record.
I believe we were speaking to our expertise globally, as Mr. Palter described, in our knowledge of other markets. That's why we were approached by the chair through a process that, as we heard from Mr. Cory, was competitive. It was based on our expertise.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Pickersgill.
Thank you, Dr. Lewis.
Next we'll go to Ms. O'Connell.
The floor is yours and you have five minutes.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all of the witnesses for being here today.
Mr. Palter and Mr. Pickersgill, I just want to go over some of the testimony, because there were several interruptions. I want to make sure that everything is on the record and very clear.
In terms of conflict of interest for executives, whether they're contract employees or employees, you made it very clear that when it came to the CIB's awarding contracts or partnerships with anyone, you and your firm, contract employees or not, were not involved in any of the awarding of CIB projects and proponents.
Senior Partner, Office Managing Partner for Canada, McKinsey & Company
That is correct.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
There couldn't be a conflict when you had nobody working with the CIB in its determination of where to award projects, etc.
Senior Partner, Office Managing Partner for Canada, McKinsey & Company
That is correct.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
In terms of the email that was referred to about names being provided as potential people to hire for CIB when it was getting started, none of the names you were provided were hired by the CIB.
Senior Partner, Office Managing Partner for Canada, McKinsey & Company
That is correct.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
Again, there was no conflict, because the names you provided were maybe taken under advisement but never actually hired. I get it.
You spoke to the three contracts in total. They ended in 2020. Again, they were very specific to the investment structure, the risk assessment and a strategic refresh. There was nothing to do with the awarding of any projects or partnerships on behalf of the CIB.
Senior Partner, Office Managing Partner for Canada, McKinsey & Company
That is correct.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
Wow. In terms of the idea around the Infrastructure Bank, I spoke about this on Tuesday as well....
I was a member of the finance committee. We also conducted a study at the time, looking at economic growth opportunities. In that study, the finance committee travelled and spoke with many, and the idea of infrastructure banks is something that the committee also talked about. We had no involvement with McKinsey in that part of the finance study.
Can you confirm that?
Senior Partner, Office Managing Partner for Canada, McKinsey & Company
That is correct. As I alluded to in my opening remarks, it's not a novel idea. It's not McKinsey's idea.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
Absolutely.
Also, in the 2015 Liberal Party platform there was the idea of an infrastructure bank. It might have been phrased in a different way, but it wasn't actually the growth council. It was an idea that was presented previously in the Liberal platform.
Did McKinsey have any involvement in designing the Liberal Party platform in 2015?
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
Let me get this straight. You're the number one ranked infrastructure consulting firm, so to speak. You had involvement in three contracts to generally set up the structure and organization boards. I get it. That happens all the time in terms of figuring out structure, hiring and those sorts of initial structures within a board.
You had no involvement on either side with your other clients or the bank. No employees you recommended were hired by the bank. You didn't have a conflict of interest, because your executives never made any recommendations of where projects were awarded.
However, you provided expertise, probably to municipalities, probably to provincial governments and probably to private organizations, because you're the number one ranked consulting firm on infrastructure.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
I don't really see the grand scandal that the Conservative Party seem to think there is but that they can't seem to connect. In fact, we heard on Tuesday that since any of those former McKinsey employees, who by the way were not McKinsey employees and then automatically went to the bank.... In fact, many of them had significant infrastructure careers. Ehren Cory worked for Infrastructure Ontario after McKinsey and then went to the bank.
Since anyone with previous McKinsey employment joined there actually have been no more contracts with McKinsey since that time. Can you confirm that?
Senior Partner, Office Managing Partner for Canada, McKinsey & Company
That's correct.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
There doesn't appear to be a whole lot here in terms of the loose connections that the Conservatives seem to be trying to build. Instead, I'd actually like to talk about—now that we have that all clarified and on the record—some of the strategic refresh work that you did. It's been acknowledged by everyone that in the initial setting up of the Infrastructure Bank changes needed to happen to get it moving.
Can you maybe talk about some of the recommendations on the strategic refresh?
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you, Ms. O'Connell.
We are continuing with Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.
Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm going to go to Minister Sohi.
Minister Sohi, you were the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities when the Canada Infrastructure Bank was established.
At the last committee meeting, Mr. Cory admitted to the committee that, while the Canada Infrastructure Bank was barely set up and had almost no employees, it awarded contracts to McKinsey & Company, without a call for tenders, to help it navigate and structure itself. Were you aware of that?