Transport Committee on Oct. 30th, 2023

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

You have been talking about this now for years and years, and we never get straight answers.

I was at one meeting in Smithers where the fellow said they were going to fly resources from Texas. It's absolutely baffling. We have communities with volunteer fire departments where they struggle to recruit members. These members take time out of their lives to volunteer to protect their community—not to protect a multi-billion dollar company that's shipping dangerous goods through their town.

I guess the question is really, what resources is CN Rail going to show up with, and how long are those resources going to take to arrive in Houston, Burns Lake, Fraser Lake, or Telkwa? How long will it take?

[Eric Harvey]

We have resources that are consistent with our emergency response plans that were approved by Transport Canada. Over and above that, in the last few years we have had 75 training sessions in your riding. We trained nearly 900 responders.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

These are voluntary training sessions, correct?

[Eric Harvey]

Yes, but we're basically training the people that you were saying may not be properly equipped.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

What I'm pointing to is that—

[Eric Harvey]

Our actions there, if I may finish, because I feel it's important....

We're committed to working with communities. We realize that what we move can be dangerous, and we're committed to support those communities the best way we can. We're doing this in the structure and the framework provided by Transport Canada, and we consider that it's appropriate.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

My point, Mr. Harvey, is that the framework is broken. Transport Canada and CN, I believe, have a responsibility to protect our communities, and they are failing to do so.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach, and Mr. Harvey.

Next, we have Mr. Strahl. It's good to have you back.

I will turn the floor over to you, for six minutes.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves here. I need the government to get me some reliable Internet out here in Chilliwack, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Mr. Cato. We have heard witness testimony that one of the things that have been a concern in British Columbia is the use of anchorages. The issue is the time that ships are at anchor. In some of the sensitive areas where they are not used to having those anchorages, they are now used all the time. Certainly, it's the belief of those who don't particularly want those vessels anchored there that the ships are waiting for grain shipments, that it's an issue with getting grain loaded. Grain and coal, I think, were the two things that were mentioned. The port cited rail reliability, when we asked about the delays at anchorage and why the ships were there so much longer than they used to be.

I want to give you an opportunity to respond to that. Is the reason the anchorages are full, and ships are coming in early and staying late, that the railways are not providing the goods they promised to the port in a timely fashion?

[Nathan Cato]

Thank you very much for the question and the opportunity to respond.

I think when we look at grain in particular, one of the biggest challenges with the Port of Vancouver is this persistent problem of delays throughout our supply chain that are caused when the loading of grain onto vessels by the grain terminal operators is interrupted or suspended during periods of inclement weather, such as rain or snow. Of course, there's frequently rain in Vancouver through the winter period, which tends to be when grain demand is at its peak. When there is a delay in any part of the grain supply chain like that, there will be cascading consequences through the entire system.

For example, just the week before last, there were heavy rains in Vancouver over about a two-day period. We had approximately 650 loaded hopper cars full of grain that were delayed getting unloaded at six grain terminals, because the terminals had suspended loading of grain onto vessels.

When it comes to those kinds of delays, frankly, ports around the world have figured out how to keep grain loading happen uninterrupted, regardless of weather. Ports just south of Vancouver, such as Seattle and Portland, have grain terminals that load grain throughout different inclement weather. This is a challenge that needs to be solved in Canada. Anything that interrupts the smooth, efficient, balanced and synchronized cycling of railcar functioning from the in-country elevator to the port and then back to origin—essentially, it's a conveyor belt that the whole system is running—will cause all sorts of consequences for the supply chain. It will undermine the overall performance and throughput of Canada's grain export supply chain.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Harvey, you mentioned the infrastructure that could be built or brought into the Port of Vancouver to allow for grain to be loaded in the rain, or you mentioned that it should be a priority. Have you been part of any working groups with Transport Canada and the port on the solution in terms of infrastructure? How long would it take to build? What would the cost be?

There are three easy questions for you.

[Eric Harvey]

Thank you.

It's a request that I believe we've been making for certainly the last three to four years. I believe in the port of Portland on the west coast of the U.S. a terminal operator has essentially built a very large roof that covers ships where grain is loaded. That enables the loading during rain or shine, essentially.

Now, in terms of the timing, I'm sorry, but I can't provide you with anything specific. Mind you, it is something that is certainly consistent with similar infrastructure that you have within ports. Therefore, given the footprint that a port has, that should be a fairly straightforward thing to build, especially considering that it's been done somewhere else. There's expertise available.

On the cost—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I'm sorry. I'm going to have to cut you off there, Mr. Harvey.

Mr. Strahl, your colleague Mr. Muys was kind enough to point out that he took the six-minute slot and that you, unfortunately, received the five-minute slot.

Mr. Iacono, you now have the floor for five minutes.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, but I'll give the floor to my colleague Mr. Badawey to begin with.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Iacono.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Cato, I want to go a step further and talk about vision and next steps. As was mentioned earlier, we have established a ports modernization review. A supply chain task force report is currently under way. We have the St. Lawrence Seaway review, Bill C-33 and Bill C-52 amongst reports that have been completed or are under way. To date we have those to update as well as to modernize.

This committee has completed two interim studies on establishing a transportation logistics strategy. In 2015 David Emerson completed a CTA review, making numerous recommendations, as I'm sure you've read.

You spoke about governance reforms within individual—individual—port structures to ensure that they're establishing and adhering to their individual strategic plans; governance that reflects supply chain experience, as you mentioned; but equally as important, experiencing and working in partnership with communities, other partners that are part of the supply chain to look at the bigger picture.

With that said, my question is this: Do you feel there should exist a binational body that would work toward establishing a binational transportation strategy that would strengthen a binationally integrated supply chain—operational in capital, moving away from protectionism, and with that, of course, ensuring that the fracture between capital transportation investments between both countries does not happen but that these investments are actually done together—and more toward an integrated North American economy, in turn strengthening our combined international trade performance?

[Nathan Cato]

Thank you very much for the question.

Now, we're the only class 1 railway in North America that operates across not just two countries, but three. We spend a lot of time thinking about this sort of thing and the need for regulatory harmonization essentially across North America, about minimizing any kind of trade barrier or regulatory barrier that causes delays at the border or somehow interrupts the efficient movement of freight. I'd want to take that back and think about the specific kind of structure that you have in mind there, but in general we are certainly supportive of efforts that look at regulatory harmonization.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

In respect of time, let's do that. Fine. I would be really interested in getting your participation within that structure.

[Nathan Cato]

I would be delighted to speak to you about that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Mr. Iacono.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Brazeau, how do you feel about the possibility of hiring police governance experts to review Canada's rail police model? Do you think their expertise might point to some possible improvements?

[Marc Brazeau]

Just to be clear, are you talking about rail police and its contribution to governance under Bill C-33?

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Yes, that's right.

[Marc Brazeau]

I'm going to ask my colleagues to answer this question, because they're in charge of police operations. Perhaps Mr. Harvey could answer the question.

[Eric Harvey]

Thank you for the question.

Essentially, the role of rail police officers is to protect railway property. This approach reduces public expenditures because otherwise public police forces would have to perform these tasks. From a public policy standpoint, there are advantages to the railways having their own police forces protect their property.

So I believe your question is more about discipline and the need to investigate certain incidents. In 2017, the provisions that were in the Canada Transportation Act were shifted to the Railway Safety Act, requiring railways to develop a complaint evaluation process to deal with allegations of irregular behaviour. That's how we dealt with that requirement.

We believe there are benefits in a rail police force, but also acknowledge that there is a need for a process to deal with disciplinary issues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Iacono.

Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, you have the floor now for two and a half minutes.