Transport Committee on Nov. 6th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. D'Angelo.

Thank you, Dr. Lewis.

Next we have Ms. Koutrakis.

Ms. Koutrakis, the floor is yours for six minutes, please.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses for being here this afternoon with us. Your testimony and your expertise are very much appreciated.

My first question is for Mr. Leblanc and Mr. Lamarche.

The 850 km corridor between Quebec City and Toronto has 12 million people and the two largest metropolitan areas in Canada, two provincial capitals and the national capital, not to mention many smaller cities.

Professor Richard Florida at the University of Toronto has written in detail about the fact that projects like this would essentially create a more competitive “super metropolis” owing to its four distinct metropolitan areas and many smaller ones, like Trois-Rivières, making travel much more efficient than anything we have today in terms of work, education, business, tourism or even simply visits to see family and friends.

Do you agree with him?

[Michel Leblanc]

As you mentioned my name first, I'll make a start at answering you. The mayor can then pick up where I leave off.

We are familiar with Richard Florida's views, and we fully agree with him.

For a metropolis like Montreal, links with Toronto are very fluid; that's also the case for Trois-Rivières and Quebec City. A high-frequency train, if it's very fast—and hence my comment about high-speed rail—would consolidate business talent and projects. We believe that it would have a significant impact on Canadian GDP. That's why we unequivocally support the project.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Mayor, what do you think?

[Jean Lamarche]

I am of course in agreement with the President of the Chamber of Commerce of Metropolitan Montreal.

I attempted in my opening address to show that that its influence would extend beyond Trois-Rivières. Indeed, the whole region would be linked more closely to places like Montreal, Toronto and Quebec City. It would have a social, economic and environmental impact.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you very much.

As I am the new parliamentary secretary to the Minister responsible for the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec, my question will be about tourism.

Our government's goal is to double the contribution of tourism to Canada's GDP by 2033. To achieve this, we will have to make sure that tourists, Canadians and foreigners alike, can readily get to their destinations.

Will the building of high-speed trains contribute to growth in the tourism sector by enabling visitors to easily get to Canada's four largest cities and many of its smaller ones?

Mr. Péloquin, how can Via Rail contribute to growth in tourism?

[Mario Péloquin]

Mr. Chair, I thank the member for her question.

A completely separate entity will be analyzing the project, making the decisions and conducting operations, but Via Rail will collaborate with them. We are not the ones who will be deciding on the coverage and services that are to be made available.

Logically then, faster and more frequent service will help tourism, because tourists like to be able to travel readily from one location to another.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

My next question is for Mr. D'Angelo.

As we've heard here today, reliability is a big plus of HFR and even high-speed rail because they operate on dedicated passenger tracks. Via operates on some of its own track but mostly on host railways like CN.

Very roughly, what is the difference in reliability and on-time performance between the two? Can a passenger railway be truly successful on other people's tracks, competing with their trains? I would like to hear your opinion, and perhaps Mr. Péloquin can weigh in.

[Marco D'Angelo]

I'll answer briefly, then.

Certainly, having your own right of way facilitates travel. It reduces travel time because you don't encounter large freight trains. The rails that are owned by CN or CP have a radio centre that's owned by those freight companies, so they are managing their own traffic.

We want passengers to come first, and that's what clients expect in their modes of travel. Whether it's by car, plane or other modes, they expect that people come before goods. That can only really happen with dedicated right of way. There are good examples of that, even in Florida with the travel times on the Brightline between Orlando and Miami.

Really, having a dedicated right of way is quite helpful.

[Mario Péloquin]

Thank you for your question.

The increased frequency of freight trains in Canada is very good for the Canadian economy. The railway companies that transport goods do more business, which generates more economic benefits for Canada. As all freight trains operate at approximately the same speed, it's easier to add another train to the schedule; it's like dominoes, and hence relatively easy.

When you start to use trains that travel at different speeds on the same tracks, such as Via Rail trains that can travel 40 miles an hour faster than a freight train—in the railway industry, unfortunately, it's still miles per hour—it becomes very complex for both to run on the same tracks. That's what complicates matters. As Marco D'Angelo pointed out, a separate line is needed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Péloquin.

Unfortunately, there's no time left.

Thank you, Ms. Koutrakis.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here with us today.

I don't have much time for the questions I would like to ask the many witnesses. I apologize in advance to any of you I won't get the opportunity to question.

Mr. Leblanc, I very much liked your opening statement earlier. You talked about priorities that appeared to come out of the consultations held with members of the Chamber of Commerce of Metropolitan Montreal. You mentioned speed as the top priority, followed by reliability and, finally, frequency.

In public discussion of high-speed and high-frequency rail, the following questions often come up: why would we give up using cars to take the train? What would lead people to willingly take the train, compared to what we see now?

Most people mention trip time. The public estimates we have at the moment indicate that it would take 2 hours and 50 minutes for a high-frequency train. Based on what your members have told you, is that fast enough for people to switch from driving or from taking a plane?

[Michel Leblanc]

Thank you for your question.

When you say 2 hours and 50 minutes, I would imagine you're referring to a trip from Montreal to Quebec City.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I am.

[Michel Leblanc]

That's definitely not fast enough.

That's why, when we talk about HFR in a business context, I say that's not what would lead people to switch to a train rather than driving or flying between Montreal and Quebec City, as you suggested. Speed is the key factor, and I would add that the emphasis should be on travel from downtown to downtown.

For Montreal and the other cities, downtown to downtown high-frequency, and particularly high-speed rail might well lead to expropriations, which would require a lot of work.

If there is to be a modal transfer, I would suggest factoring in downtown to downtown travel time.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you for your suggestion. That's what I wanted to hear from you. I wanted to raise the issue of downtown to downtown travel.

There's been a lot of talk about a possible connection in North Montreal or the middle of Montreal Island. That worries me somewhat. I can't see tourists or business people arriving in North Montreal and then having to hop on the Metro orange line to get to their downtown appointment. We were told that there might be other possibilities.

I'd like to hear your definition of downtown. When we pushed for an answer, we were sometimes told that there might occasionally be a downtown connection.

What are the boundaries of downtown, exactly? It would be interesting to know. I wouldn't think that downtown includes the whole island. It's not really that big. Am I right?

[Michel Leblanc]

Your question deserves a nuanced answer. I'm talking about the travel time from one city centre to another. There might be a scenario in which a decision would be made to drill another tunnel under the mountain to get downtown. The mountain wouldn't disappear. There's only one tunnel. Are we condemned for eternity?

The second option would be to have an intermodal station connected to the REM, the Réseau express métropolitain, in the northern part of Mount Royal. There are examples of this in Europe, like Paris, where there are several train stations. Some cities have several train stations and connections between them are highly efficient.

I would suggest not necessarily looking into the possibility of locating the train station downtown. I would instead suggest estimating how much time it would take to get downtown to the HFR and to use it.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you for these details. That is in fact a good argument. You feel that the priority is the time it would take to get from one city centre to another. For example, Montreal to Quebec City might be a very short trip, but unless their downtowns are linked, it might prove to be difficult. So the idea is to link them with due regard to the time it takes, even with a modal transfer.

You also raised the issue of local benefits.

That truly interest me, but it doesn't appear to be a priority yet in the government's plans. From your standpoint, how can we factor in economic benefits for businesses while complying with international agreements?

[Michel Leblanc]

In the United States, there is very clear intent to use the Inflation Reduction Act to ensure that the American economy benefits from the tens or hundreds of billions of dollars that are going to be spent.

The Americans found solutions. Let's learn from them. Let's arrange for builders, engineering firms and equipment suppliers, among others, to commit to investments in Canada that are commensurate with project expenditures. There are ways of getting that done. It would take too long to talk about it here, but we have to find a way to create benefits in Canada, just as it has been done elsewhere.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

My understanding of it then is that it would take political will to succeed.

The final subject I would like to hear you talk about is cost transparency. I've done some research.

For example, just recently, an HST project covering the 955 km between Madrid and Levante in Spain, was completed for 12.5 billion euros, or $18.3 billion Canadian. That amounts to a cost of $19 million dollars per kilometre for HST. In Canada, Via HFT is talking about a total of $65 billion, or approximately $75 million per kilometre.

How can an estimate like that be considered credible, when it's three to four times more than similar costs elsewhere? How can we get reliable data? Do you feel that we can rely on the current data, in view of international comparisons like that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Unfortunately, you've run out of time. We'll have to wait for the next round for an answer.

Next, we have Mr. Bachrach.

I'll turn the floor over to you. You have six minutes, sir.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses for joining us.

Mr. Péloquin, congratulations on your new role. I think you said in your intro remarks, “It is an honour to join Via Rail at such an extraordinary time.” The word “extraordinary” can have many meanings. I would offer that, to many people, it feels like a time of great uncertainty.

I know you can't speak directly to many aspects of HFR because there is now a separate Crown entity spearheading that project, so I want to direct my questions this evening to the rest of Via Rail service.

I'll preface it by saying just how much I appreciate the legacy of Via Rail and the service that your employees provide. I was on the train yesterday to visit my daughter and I interacted with your staff. They always do a very good job. They are skilled professionals. Their work is deeply appreciated.

The riding I represent shares its name with one of the most beautiful train trips in North America. That is the Skeena, between Jasper and Prince Rupert. Unfortunately, that rail route, which used to serve as a viable transportation service between communities, has really been reduced to a tourist amenity because of the lack of dependability and reliability of the schedule.

Recently in the news, you were quoted talking about the need for “putting rules in place prioritizing passenger rail trains.” I share that desire, because I think if we can increase the consistency and the reliability, more people are going to use the service. Would you like to see the present government bring forward legislation to achieve this?

[Mario Péloquin]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

I will address a few of those points. First, we're very proud of the people who work for Via Rail—on board the trains, driving the trains, and maintaining those trains. Without their heroic efforts every day, we wouldn't be able to run the trains that we run today.

I'm a fourth-generation railroader from both sides. I've seen the birth of Via Rail from its humble beginnings to what it is today. Via has gone from providing the same services that it was providing on both freight railroads at the time, to the kind of service that we can provide today.

That is due to a few complexities, such as operating on freight railways when there are no priorities. Passenger trains used to be classified as class I trains. That's gone away with privatization changing the rules, the operating methods and so on. Also, the increase in freight traffic, as I explained before, makes it difficult to inject more passenger trains and to get access to those freight tracks. It's a very complex mix of issues that we have to deal with.

When there's a reduction in several lines—the Skeena line being one of them, as you pointed out—it proves very difficult to restart the service. We need to have the proper rolling stock to run that service. We need to have enough staff, and we need to get the permission of the host railways to operate those trains.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

At one of our previous meetings, we had a presentation by Terence Johnson from Transport Action Canada. I'll just read you part of his testimony. He said:

...if the rest of Via Rail continues to operate as a public service, it needs a very much larger subsidy to provide all the core services that are currently shared with the corridor. That, I think, would be something that we feel wouldn't actually happen at all, and you would in fact see trains like the Skeena just disappear....

He's speaking to the fact that if the government privatizes the corridor, it's going to rob Via Rail of the bulk of its revenue. The subsidy to maintain the remainder of our service across Canada is going to have to be much greater as a percentage. The rest of Canada doesn't have very high ridership. The fear is that we're going to lose those rural routes altogether in other parts of Canada, including the place that I'm so proud to represent.

Is this a valid concern?

[Mario Péloquin]

Look, my vision for Via Rail is to continue to provide, and hopefully increase, an affordable, accessible, environmentally friendly, sustainable and diverse service across Canada. The fact that the corridor is going to look different than it does today doesn't impact what my vision for Via Rail is—it's to continue or enhance the service in all of the regions that we serve now. Let's not forget that some of those regions are not only long distances, but they're also remote, where access to transportation is very challenging without the train.