Evidence of meeting #11 for Veterans Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ombudsman.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, The War Amps
Mr. Chairman, I would say long enough for it to be ingrained into their system, and in no case would you find an ombudsman.... The man may have changed, but the duties of the office have not changed for 20 years at least.
5 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
Interesting. Okay. It may go back before that, but it's certainly when you were investigating.
5 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
Okay, that's interesting.
Mr. Stoffer, I'm not going to recognize you because it's now Monsieur Perron's time.
5 p.m.
Bloc
Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
In your opening statement, you said that you believe the ombudsman would be authorized to terminate a case. Have you considered an appeal mechanism, for cases where an applicant wanted to challenge the termination of his case or believed that the ombudsman may have made a mistake? Here I am not talking about the Federal Court of Canada.
5:05 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, The War Amps
Monsieur Perron, if an ombudsman made a mistake, it would be brought to his attention when he submitted his report and somebody said we don't agree. What happens then--and that's I'm sure the big question--if you disagree with the ombudsman?That's where the advice of superior powers comes in, such as the Minister of Veterans Affairs, or even the Office of the Prime Minister. He was unable to resolve it, and if he says he disagrees, then it has to go to a higher authority, but not the courts.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
I'm just thinking of a veteran who is told the ombudsman has closed his file but, because he believes in his cause, wants to continue his defence.
I guess you assume there would be an out-of-court settlement in such cases.
5:05 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, The War Amps
Yes, as we said, Monsieur, the ombudsman should not do the pension commission's job for it. What it should do is provide advice if the chairman of the commission--he has a new title now--if the chairman of the Veterans Review and Appeal Board does not agree, he has at least gone one step further and gotten advice, and he says to hell with that, I don't agree with your advice. The system is that fluid.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Mr. Chairman, would you allow me to ask a question that doesn't deal with the ombudsman, but that would probably be enlightening for many of us?
I'm looking at the list of 55 associations that you represent. For example, the list includes the Dieppe Veterans and the Prisoners of War Association and the National Prisoners of War Association of Canada. Are they not one and the same organization? Why are there 55 of them?
5:05 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, The War Amps
Because they have different financing, they have different slates of officers, as we'd call it. The Dieppe people are interested only in what happened in Dieppe. The European prisoners of war are interested only in what happens to the veteran who was a prisoner of war in a European theatre or the African-Eurasian theatre. Then, with another group, of course, there are the Hong Kong veterans, and with the Hong Kong veterans they have a different system.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
5:05 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, The War Amps
None of it comes from the government--that's number one--none of it.
5:05 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, The War Amps
Yes, none of it comes from the government. They're very proud of the fact that they're independent of any government financing, and sometimes this leads to some pretty healthy debate at the meetings. I'll be going to one in two weeks' time.
What really happened was that there were some organizations that were very strong, but they depended on having to meet every two years or whatever. We found that people such as the Canadian fighter pilots said, “Go to hell”; they just said, “We'll do it ourselves.” Over a period of 20 years they began developing ways and means of fundraising.
For example, one of them has, believe it or not—and this is an indication—a motorcycle bike ride that goes into Sunnybrook Hospital, which raises $30,000 every year. They've found ways and means. The War Amps never get a nickel from the government.
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
There are 55 associations on the list, but are there any others that you do not represent? How many are there altogether?
5:10 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, The War Amps
So far, the peacekeepers, as we call them, were members of our organization. There was a falling out on a policy question, and we said, “You're free to disestablish yourselves, and more luck to you,” and that's what happened. Now, there are very few.... Mostly, regimental organizations want to come in. Hardly two weeks go by that we don't get an application from some veterans organization, because they feel we're independent.
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
Well, gentlemen, I think because we still have some business to deal with in regard to our upcoming committee meeting for Wednesday....
Mr. Stoffer.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
Mr. Chairman, very quickly, sir, I think it's important for our committee. It's not like what Mr. Perron did.
5:10 p.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
I can ask this through you to Mr. Chadderton. Is he aware of the United States or any Commonwealth country that has an ombudsman for veterans affairs?
5:10 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, The War Amps
There is no ombudsman employed in any adjudicative system that I know of in the North American milieu—none.