Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 30th, 2006

[Bill Casey, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Yes, there seems be a conflict of interest. That's an interesting point, and we run into that all the time. You have to wonder if the veteran was actually represented as well as he or she could have been.

[Les Peate]

As I mentioned, part of the fault lies with the veteran. One of the things I tell our people and drum into them continually is not to assume that people know what you're talking about, particularly if you're using technical terms. Be specific. Don't say “I lived in a hoochie”; say “I lived in a hole in the ground that was six feet deep, flooded in summer, frozen in winter, infested with rats and lice, and dug in ground that was fertilized with human waste and sprayed every day with DDT.” I think that would probably make a difference when he presents his case.

[Bill Casey, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Another big issue I've run into is that their medical records aren't complete. There's often no reference to an injury or something that happened while the veteran was in the service, and now they can't go back and re-establish those records, and some of the people who were there have already passed on.

[Les Peate]

We've had that too. One of the things we're telling our people is if there are no records, for heaven's sake, get a witness. This is one of the things that the centre was doing before they folded--helping to find witnesses.

Gord was a medic. He could probably tell you more about that one.

[Gord Strathy]

You ask me to provide a witness, somebody who remembers what happened on October 23, 1951.

I misplaced my car keys last week. This guy no longer drives a car because he lost his keys. So you're asking the blind to assist the blind. You're asking someone to recall, 50 years later, exactly what happened on a particular day. I can't remember. Why should he?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Go ahead, Monsieur Perron.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I would like you to clarify the answer that you have given to Ken and Peter.

If I understood correctly, the people who should be able to access the ombudsman are the military people, the veterans from the First World War and the Second World War, as well as those from the Korean War. That includes all those who took part in peacekeeping missions.

What about the member of the armed forces who retired or has been released by the department? Is he still linked to National Defence? Is he among those who should benefit from the ombudsman's services?

[Les Peate]

I would say yes, definitely, if his medical problem results from his military service, whether he is serving or has just been released, or whether it's something such as some of the chemical things, for instance, that crop up 20 or 30 years later. If it results from his military service, then definitely, I would say that he should be able to avail himself of the services of the ombudsman.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I suppose that he must have been part of the Canadian Armed Forces during some part of his career.

[Les Peate]

Yes, or as was mentioned earlier, perhaps it would be a dependant. I'm dealing with a case right now. This lady is the widow of a career veteran who died of cancer two years ago. When he died of cancer, they didn't have this study, and his pension was turned down. We're fighting this battle again now, in light of the new policy. I don't know how lucky we'll be, but this is one of the cases where even a dependant, a widow, should be able to avail herself or--as in many cases now, of course, with so many ladies in the service--himself of the services of the ombudsman.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Peate, for this excellent clarification.

Mr. Chair, back to you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, Monsieur Perron.

Now, finally, Mr. Cuzner will be able to talk about his constituent.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Mr. Chairman, I was prepared to negotiate with the former used car salesman to get that two minutes.

My question will be quick. It is with reference to your opening comments. You said at the time that one of the priorities of your organization was to have the VIP program extended to all veterans of the Korean War. I'll make reference, as did my colleague Mr. Stoffer, to correspondence that was received by Joyce Carter. I'm sure that you know Mrs. Carter, a constituent of mine. Had your organization been given any assurance that in fact this might take place, or were you in any way encouraged over the last number of months, prior to the last election, that this in fact would take place?

[Les Peate]

As a matter of fact, I've just returned from the annual general meeting of the National Council of Veteran Associations. As I mentioned, this is the umbrella group. Cliff Chadderton and Brian Forbes speak for us, and basically we're going to go on with them.

I understood that this was supposed to be happening, but I'm not sure whether it has yet. I haven't received any reports of any widow receiving VIP, and I don't know if Gord has.

[Gord Strathy]

No, I haven't had any yet.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

So that's where it would have come from? That would qualify your initial comments in your opening remarks. It would have arisen from the last general meeting?

[Les Peate]

Yes. These major issues, quite frankly, we have them in unity, strength, or whatever, and these issues affect all veterans. And when we're talking about VIP, we're not just talking career veterans, by any means. On the issues that refer to all veterans, normally we support and go along with the NCVAC's position.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you.

Very quickly, we're talking about the ombudsman, we're talking about the power and the ability and what scope he could investigate. Some of the issues you've identified with the Korea vets. Is that what you see the ombudsman having the power to do? If a group of people are involved, if there's a particular circumstance in the conflict they were in, like Korea, like the gulf, can the ombudsman just say we're going to deal with them all as a class--we don't need individual cases coming forward, as we should be able to look at this as a group? Is that something you see the ombudsman having the power to do?

[Les Peate]

I would like to see that happen. Of course we're talking theory now, but in a case like that, a good example is the gold-digging widows. They're a group.

If you remember, another case was brought up, and I don't want to go into the details, because I have my own views: the people who were suing Veterans Affairs for billions of dollars that were supposedly misspent in the case of people who were in hospital. Now, this was a group thing. On the other hand, we've got the case of Squadron Leader Wenzel. You remember this. This was one of the cases I believe the ombudsman brought out. This was the case of one individual who'd fallen through the cracks. This was an individual case.

In the case of the others, a good example.... Let's say somebody realized Korean War veterans weren't getting a gratuity—in fact, we did, after a fashion—and we decided we should have one, we deserved one, everybody had one and we didn't. This is the sort of thing we would go to the ombudsman with, state our case, and ask him to put it forward on behalf of the group. That's just an example. We're quite happy with him when we get it.

[Gord Strathy]

The ombudsman would have to deal with individual cases, as well as group, but that would be up to the individual to decide whether it would be more expedient to work with the group, or would he zero in on John's problem.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Okay. I think at this stage we're going to wrap up our meeting. We do have some other committee business we need to get to today.

I'd like to thank our witnesses for appearing. I tremendously enjoyed your presentation on your experiences in Korea and the aftermath, and we had a number of good questions and solid answers with regard to how you envision the ombudsman. I appreciate that.

Thank you very much.

Does the committee want to take a couple of minutes here? Okay, that's what we'll do.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

We did have the business still carrying over from the last meeting with regard to the motion put forward by Mrs. Hinton concerning the committee's potential travel to Australia. We were waiting to hear word back form our Liberal colleagues on their thoughts on the matter.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

There are a number of points of concern. Obviously we all want to take into consideration the cost of such an endeavour, and that's paramount. So I think we should look at some hard figures before we make a decision. The timing of travel is another thing. I think we all get quite busy in December. There are a couple of other things that we have on the agenda, from our party's perspective, early in December. We'll be trying to come together after that. But as well, things are busy here in December. So as far as the timing goes, January or February may be more appropriate. It was even mentioned by my colleague that the committee might consider going in April, when they celebrate ANZAC Day in Australia.

Those would have been the main points of concern. The third one was that there was a gentleman from Australia who was being invited to appear. We might want to meet with him and see if there are questions or concerns, if we can get our points addressed by him, and if we're comfortable with his testimony. We might want to reflect on it as well. Those are just some of the things we had talked about that we wanted to discuss and that we thought were worthy of discussion here at the committee table.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I'll be very frank when I say that I would not recommend that the committee travel unless you and aspects of your party are happy with that. There's no way we're going to force the committee to travel without your go-ahead on this. I think it would be unwise on all of our parts.

Yes, Mr. St. Denis?