Veterans Affairs Committee on Dec. 11th, 2006

[Brian Ferguson]

There's an awful lot of information to collect for a first application, and I should mention that we are actually exceeding that standard. We are averaging about four months at the moment. It's a standard that we probably should revisit, given the performance improvements we've made. The reason it was set at that—it was a stretch target at the time—is that we didn't want to mislead our clients in terms of what their expectations could be. So I think we'll go back and have another look at the standards. We do that regularly anyway.

In answer to your question on why it takes so long when someone actually applies for, in this case, a disability award under the new Veterans Charter or for a pension under the old Pension Act, we have to collect the information to determine whether or not the service they had at the time they were injured is eligible—that it was in fact military service—or whether they were injured at the time when they were serving in the military. We have to get records. There has to be an assessment made as to whether the injury was caused by military service. Then we have to get medical information about the level of the injury and whether it's permanent so that we can make an assessment as to the level of payment that would be eligible.

In some cases it's difficult, when people are in their eighties, going back 60 years to find those records. We make every effort to find them. In some cases there isn't a lot of information on the file, so our people will go back and try to regenerate the file as best they can from people's recollections. It's a fairly intensive work activity, collecting that information and getting it right so that it can be presented in a credible way to adjudicators—who, by the way, don't take very long when they get the information. It's really the collection of information that is the biggest bottleneck for the whole system, and one that is not an easy nut to crack, but we're really working hard at it.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

When you want to go back, then, and you likely go into DND, how accessible are those records? How well do you work together?

[Brian Ferguson]

We work extremely well together. For the older records, they are actually in the possession of the National Archives—and correct me if I'm wrong here, Ken.

For the modern veteran, they're still in the possession of National Defence. We work very closely with National Defence. We have a number of initiatives under way, and one of them is the continual pursuit of improving our access to their service records by providing resources on bases to photocopy information and to look at better, more technologically up-to-date ways of transferring information from the department. They're extremely cooperative with the department and we have really good working relationships with them.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Looking at the veterans bill of rights, the rights of people, and going back to your comments that some of these records go back a long way and they're very hard to get, in fact, I would submit that some of your clients would say that the records aren't there. Then when we get to the point of the benefit of the doubt, I'll go back to Mr. Stoffer's comments about client satisfaction. I can give you some records that say there is no, very little, and sometimes not any consideration for benefit of the doubt. These people are now at a stage in their lives where they need some benefit. It's not well documented, and it's no fault of theirs, but they are not being given any benefit of the doubt about what actually happened. They get a deaf ear. In fact, comments will come such as, “My lawyer won't even bother talking to them anymore.”

I'm wondering what we can do in terms of the veterans bill of rights. Will there be any help for veterans for those circumstances?

[Brian Ferguson]

As I indicated earlier, I have to continue to remind the committee members that my mandate is not to talk about what the content of the bill of rights or the process will be, but I can tell you in answer to your first question, sir, what the process is relative to the application of the benefit of the doubt in policy terms.

[Ken Miller]

I can try to clarify that for you, Mr. Shipley.

In terms of how the department applies that concept, it is a concept that's in the legislation, and we do apply it frequently. However, I think it's fair to say that clients sometimes will misunderstand what it means and interpret it to mean benefit of the doubt in the absence of any information at all. It doesn't mean that.

It means that when you have information that seems reasonable and is uncontradicted, although it may not be the injury report or something as definitive as that, the benefit of the doubt goes to the client. It can be information such as—and this is used all the time in our adjudication process—a statement from somebody else who was there, a comrade or a friend, or somebody who can attest to the fact that an injury or some event took place. Whenever we can provide that benefit of the doubt, we certainly do apply it.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I've had circumstances in which there were maybe two witnesses who witnessed something. The individual now has come forward because there are issues. Those people now, the witnesses, are not alive. The response in terms of benefit of the doubt, then, is that you don't have any witnesses. There's some of that stuff happening.

I don't know what my time is, Mr. Chair.

[Brian Ferguson]

I will comment quickly, sir, that if you know of any case like that, we'd like to talk to you about it so that we can see if there's anything else we can do.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you very much.

[Brian Ferguson]

We don't want to give up on it, in any case.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

We will go now to Mr. St. Denis.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, gentlemen, for helping us out today.

On the terms “veterans charter” and “veterans bill of rights”, to make sure it's clear in the minds of those who read the transcripts and all of us, if I were to describe the Veterans Charter in its new version as the suite or set of programs available to veterans, would that be a fair characterization in one sentence of the Veterans Charter?

[Brian Ferguson]

Yes.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Okay.

Using one sentence, could you describe what a veterans bill of rights might be? I do know that the Dominion Command of the Legion, in an October meeting, said that turnaround times should not be days or weeks to get to such a result, depending on the program that the veteran is applying for. That aside, could you characterize in one sentence the department's view of what the veterans bill of rights would be?

[Brian Ferguson]

It's going to be very difficult to do in one sentence, sir.

Going back to what I said earlier, the content of the bill of rights is still being worked on. There's a process under way to formulate that, and as I understand it, it's going well. I'm not really here to talk about the outcome of that process, other than to say to you that the kinds of things we're striving to do in terms of service to our veterans would be well served by a bill of rights. It would add to and elevate the status of the expectations of our clients for what they can get from this department.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I'm not saying the Legion is right or wrong in their view, but it sounds as though the delivery standards are more the direction that the department sees anyway. I'm not saying that's wrong; it needs to end up somewhere. The Legion talks about it, and they are important stakeholders in all of this, along with the other associations.

If it's not service standards, it's something else. The Legion talks about something that's short, something that could be on a little card in a wallet. I'm trying to imagine what that might be. You must have in your mind at least the various sets of possibilities.

[Brian Ferguson]

I think that's a fair comment. Everybody probably has in their own mind what they might see that to be. Certainly there are probably a lot of different definitions of what a service standard would look like, what the content of a bill of rights would look like. I have my own ideas, but it isn't—

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

What are those? That's what I want to ask you.

[Brian Ferguson]

I'm not really in a position to share those with you today, because the process that is under way needs to be respected, and that process is—

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

So there's no emerging consensus.

[Brian Ferguson]

Again, I can't answer that. My understanding is that the process is moving ahead well. I'll probably have a chance to discuss that with Mr. Hillier, but I haven't got a status report on where it is and what the content will be. So I want to be able to respect that process.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Okay, so there's no draft of a bill of rights sitting out there in the wings. But I wouldn't see that as a bad thing. I wouldn't see that as any worse than having a bill for the ombudsman in the wings, ready to go. I think it's helpful when governments are ready to propose, and oppositions to oppose, and to work back and forth. If there's no draft bill of rights, that's fine.

Is there a sort of bill of rights for the clientele of any department around, for example, the Canada Pension Plan, the clients being disability recipients or the pensioners themselves? Do you know? I don't think so, but....

[Brian Ferguson]

I'm not aware. There may well be. I know that other departments have service standards similar to the kinds of service standards that we've put in our At Your Service brochure—other departments have that sort of thing.

I'm not aware, sir. I'm sorry I may not be able to respond to that today, but I'm not aware of whether other departments have a bill of rights or not.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Being positive, I think there was a lot of support for this, as there is for an ombudsman. But with respect to a veterans bill of rights, the day after such a list is approved, presumably by Parliament, can you imagine how the life of a typical veteran would be changed?

[Brian Ferguson]

Again, not knowing exactly and not being able to comment totally on the process, I go back to what I said earlier. We expect that this would give greater assurance and even greater clarity to veterans across Canada and clients of this department about what they could expect from us. I think that's an important adjunct or complement to the communication mechanisms that the department has. Actually, it's a fairly significant gap that's missing in the overall framework, so I would see it as being advantageous.