Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 13th, 2007

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Just before we go to that, Michel has come back over with the deletions and the changes. I guess everyone is all right with that, and it seems to be fine? Okay.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I trust Michel.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

That's good. We all do.

As the chairman, you had mentioned to move on to the next step, following from the ombudsman. Since that has gone so well, it takes us to that next step of the bill of rights, and I think that is where we want to go. I know we had that discussion earlier, but this is likely just formalizing the bill of rights. Hopefully then we can move to the VIP health care. That seems to be a step of getting to what we actually want to accomplish for the vets.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Monsieur Perron.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Chair, I believe I'm going to offer you the opportunity to take part in Canadian history, as a group.

You know I am very much concerned about the fate of the victims of post-traumatic stress. I believe, and I have evidence to support this, that we could save the government a lot of money. We know the act and regulations can't be amended, but the required qualifications when young soldiers are recruited can be.

National Defence is currently enrolling youths who will become soldiers as though it were buying pounds of ground beef at the grocery store. They quickly determine whether they're suitable, and, if they are, they hire them. I've discovered that they rely on no psychological profile when they recruit these youths. They aren't all suited to going to war, using firearms and so on.

Perhaps we could give National Defence a hand. It would take two meetings to confirm what I'm telling you. I'd like to tell you about what I've discovered through reading and enquiring into post-traumatic stress. I could talk to you about it for hours and hours, but that wouldn't be convincing enough.

I'll give you an example. Pascale Brillon is a doctor of psychology and a professor at the University of Montreal. She has written a number of books on post-traumatic stress. I think we could invite her to spend an afternoon with us, simply to teach us about the nature of post-traumatic stress.

In addition, Robert Belzile is a doctor in the region. He treated me for prostate cancer, and I developed a friendship with him. He's also a specialist in post-traumatic stress. Before resigning as physician-in-chief at the RCMP, he treated victims of post-traumatic stress. These are people for whom we pay for insurance. We should also devote one meeting to Dr. Belzile so he can thoroughly explain to us what post-traumatic stress is. After hearing from those two experts, we could decide what influence we could have and whether it's worth doing an in-depth study of this matter.

I haven't contacted Ms. Brillon. Consequently, I don't know whether she could meet with us. I've read her books. I think it may be beneficial to have psychologists on the battlefield. In her books she recommends that a person who has suffered post-traumatic stress should be debriefed within 24 hours, not six months to a year, after the mission. In short, we need personnel on the front.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I certainly think that sounds interesting.

Mrs. Hinton.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I was just going to say that I thought that did sound extremely interesting. I don't know why we couldn't do that under the health care review, because everyone seems to want to go in that direction. We have the bill of rights that we have promised the veterans we'll complete. We're going to be meeting with the minister and the deputy minister so all of us get to know the new deputy minister.

When we do that health care review, I don't know why we couldn't touch on exactly what you're talking about.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I agree with you, Betty, but post-traumatic stress should be treated immediately, like a disease. Every day, young people come back from Afghanistan very disturbed. How do we care for them? How can we prevent this stress in those who will be going to Afghanistan? The changing of the guard will take place in August.

The timing is very critical. I'm tired of seeing young fellow citizens 30, 32 or 34 years of age going as far as suicide after coming back from overseas. There are a lot of them. We're only seeing the tip of the iceberg; most of the problems lie beneath the surface.

We urgently need to ask ourselves the following question: do we let them die or do we try to prevent post-traumatic stress syndrome by preparing them better, so as to reduce the number of young people who suffer from it? That's our dilemma. What do we do with these youths who leave poorly prepared and who come back disturbed?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I'm just going to toss in something, and then I have Mr. St. Denis and Mr. Shipley up next.

Mr. Perron, would you want them to be the first witnesses on an examination of health? Is that acceptable to you?

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

We should immediately accept my first proposal, that we hear from people who are experiencing post-traumatic stress syndrome. In the course of our proceedings, we could ask questions, educate ourselves, improve and develop our thinking.

At the rate things are going, we'll be starting late. However, we have to proceed as quickly as possible because this is urgent, very urgent. We'll lose even more young people. I'm thinking of my sons.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I'm not saying it isn't. That's why I'm saying that they would be the first witnesses to appear.

Mr. St. Denis.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I had written down an issue I thought was important, and then as I listen to Gilles, it seemed to fit right in.

It seemed to me, and as I've been involved some months now, that the needs of this present and future generation of veterans are not exactly the same as the generation of veterans out of World War II and Korea and so on. Post-traumatic stress disorder is one of the things that's evolved probably most of all. We don't know for sure, but it seems like it might have.

Whether it's under the general veterans health study or whether it's a separate piece on post-traumatic, I'd be interested in getting a sense through that of how have the veterans' needs and the veteran profile changed from the older times to the present time so that at least we'd have some sense. Maybe it would provide some guidance to the department in years to come, when the 2007 veterans are 60 and 70 years old. Their needs will be different 30 years from now from the ones we're dealing with who are now 70. That's a general subject area for me, but it fits into the comments that we have heard.

If I can continue, are we talking new business in general?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I think so.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

To continue, when the minister and deputy minister are here--and you'll tell us at some point whether those dates have been set yet--I would be interested, on our part, in finding out at that session or some other session about a work plan for the implementation of an ombudsman. We're assuming that the government heard the minister say it's a good idea; it was a campaign commitment, and we've all agreed to it. I'd like to hear a work plan, some outline that the department is going to do this for consultations and hopes to have a bill presented at some point in time, just so that we have a sense when we're talking to our legions and others that this has not come to a report and now we won't hear anything for two years, but that we have some sense of when that might be.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I sense that it will be incredibly fast, sir, but I know that Mrs. Hinton may have something to add to it.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I'll just conclude with my last point. I agree, but I won't repeat what Bev said on the issues he raised.

Finally, on the Agent Orange issue, again, that will come up when the deputy minister and minister are here, but it's something we need to keep top of mind.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I have Mr. Shipley next, then Mr. Stoffer, but I believe, Ms. Hinton, you wanted to speak to this issue specifically.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I just wanted to go back to when we began this session with the committee, when we talked about the ombudsman. We plowed through that issue rather well, and I think we did a really great job as a team. But we also talked about the bill of rights, and that's part and parcel of the ombudsman position—they mesh. We haven't dealt with that yet, and we need to deal with it as well. I don't think it is going to take very long. We've listened to enough witnesses and have certainly heard from a number of people who told us what they want to see in a bill of rights. So I don't think it's going to take us very long at all.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Okay.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to correct what Mr. St. Denis said in his presentation, that post-traumatic stress is recent. Pardon me for correcting you so abruptly, Mr. St. Denis. On page 168 of the Journal de guerre (1914-1919) by Brigadier-General Thomas-Louis Tremblay of the 22nd Battalion, he states that colonels, including Mr. Georges Vanier, who was Governor General, were withdrawn from the front because of shell shock. Since the commander and soldiers were losing control, they were withdrawn from the front line for two or three months, then brought back in. That was post-traumatic stress.

I have another anecdote to tell you. Two years ago, the President of the Deux-Montagnes branch of the Royal Canadian Legion told me that his sons weren't right in the head. His wife, who was seated beside him, then answered that, when he left for the war, the Second World War, he was a good husband, and when he returned, he was still a good husband, except that he solved and continues to solve the problems he has in his head with the tall gin he drinks every day.

Post-traumatic stress is quite a bit more widespread than we believe, and we want to make that understood.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Okay.

I'm certainly not trying to indicate it's not important. I thought Mrs. Hinton was going to respond to your question of timeliness.

I sense that as soon as the report is tabled.... And I know we're just waiting to include the foreword of the report and that's it's five working days from that type of thing until the production of the report. So I'm hoping we'll have our press conference next week. I don't know if it's going to be in the middle or late next week, as it all depends how fast the publication will be done, but hopefully late next week, or whatever it will be, we'll have a press conference with regard to this.

I sense that very, very soon after that, you're going to see a lot of action on that file, sir. I'm very confident of that.

Mr. Shipley, you were up next.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Just as we're trying to get our minds around where to go, as Gilles has said, there are a number of issues in terms of health care. I guess we knew it as shell shock in the past, but PTSD or post-traumatic stress disorder is certainly one of those.

I'm suggesting that on the fifteenth, or two days from now, we move ahead with the bill of rights. Mr. Victor Marchand would be able to come, and as we start into that next phase, we wanted the minister to come. We have not met the new deputy minister, Ms. Tining. If we could have those two individuals, the minister and deputy minister, come on the twentieth—though I don't know if those dates are feasible—then we could talk about health as we move into the session on the health care review. I really believe that's all part of it.

As much as it is an emergency or as much as it's really important that we understand that, I really think we still want to start by having the minister and deputy minister in. If we're going to deal with health care in the very near future, then why don't we do that and put that at the top of the list to deal with? This is the first time it's actually come up at the meeting in terms of it being an emergency. I think we've all known about it, but we were tied up on the ombudsman issue, which we've actually completed in very good time. I think the bill of rights will not take long, and the health care review, if we want to.... Unless it's been deemed by someone outside of here to be an emergency and that we actually need to get direction on it and move on it to come to a solution, we can still do that in very good time.

I would just suggest, Mr. Chairman, that if we have those commitments from those individuals to come here, then why don't we get those dates set up and allow us time in between to do the tabling of the report on the ombudsman?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Mr. Stoffer is up next. Mr. Stoffer, carry on.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Yes, I do believe the bill of rights should follow up on this. Also, under the health, I don't know about the rest of you, but the one biggest complaint I get from veterans is when they apply for hearing aids or hearing pensions. The vast majority of them get turned down because it's very difficult to prove that standing next to a gunner or big guns on the ships in the forties led to a hearing loss today.

One of the premier audiologists in the country, Dr. David Lyon, is in Dartmouth, in Mike Savage's riding, and he works solely on veterans. Some of them get hearing aids, some don't, even though they may have worked on the same ship at the same time. It is one of the most irritating little problems that we have. It's very important for them, but for us, when they go through the appeals, we send it to the minister and we speak to the regional people on the ground, and they're just turning them down left, right, and centre. Most of these guys just want hearing aids.

So when we go on to the health concerns, Mr. Perron's issue is extremely important. That's an issue we do need to deal with.

It would be interesting to compare the PTSD of today to shell shock, what was known as shell shock before. It would be interesting to get some veterans in to see how they reacted when they came back after that, and to get some comparisons on it, on whether things have improved or not.

On the hearing loss, it would be interesting under the health aspect to bring in someone like Dr. David Lyon to understand why there is difficulty in accessing either pensions or hearing aids for veterans when it comes to hearing loss. That's the one I deal with the most, and it's most frustrating.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Fair enough, Mr. Stoffer.

Mr. Sweet, I believe you indicated you wanted to speak.