Evidence of meeting #30 for Veterans Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
9:35 a.m.
Bloc
Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Good morning and welcome, ladies and gentlemen.
I'm going to try to direct your attention to a similar matter, which is part of the situation, but which is not discussed enough. Yes, it is good that we recognize the people who suffer from PTSS, but what efforts are we making to prevent it? I'm speaking mainly to Ms. LeBeau, because I'm curious. When they are deployed on a battlefield or in a theatre of war, do recruits really receive training that enables them to assess themselves, detect any stress problems and decide to consult someone immediately? Are they trained for that?
Second, is there any qualified personnel, psychologists, and so on? I've been told that, in Afghanistan, for example, if it is discovered that someone has symptoms of post-traumatic stress, he or she is sent to an American or someone else or to the chaplain. Do we have qualified personnel?
My last question is really typical. There's no answer to it, but I ask it nevertheless. If we could have a good system, get organized and contribute to the superhuman effort you make when they come back from over there, how much money would we need? We're constantly short of money. Would it be better to invest in qualified personnel to treat people than to buy a C-130 or C-17 aircraft? What are our investment priorities?
9:40 a.m.
Col Donald S. Ethell
I'll ask Major Le Beau to answer the first one and then I'll answer the second one.
9:40 a.m.
Maj Mariane Le Beau
Actually, since Mr. Jim Jamieson is the medical advisor to OSISS from the Canadian Forces—
9:40 a.m.
Col Donald S. Ethell
Good point.
9:40 a.m.
Maj Mariane Le Beau
—I'll ask him to pitch in here as well.
I'd like to answer in French.
As regards recruits, you ask what training they receive. In the past two years, the Operational Stress Injury Social Support Program, our program, has systematically offered all recruits entering the Canadian Armed Forces an approximately three-and-a-half-hour session on operational stress injuries. That's a considerable effort; that's a lot of training hours.
9:40 a.m.
Bloc
Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Three and a half hours per recruit is a lot of hours?
9:40 a.m.
Maj Mariane Le Beau
A half day during the recruits course is the first stage. The second stage occurs during the master corporal courses. Starting in August, there will be the training at the Canadian Defence Academy. We're only talking about operational stress injuries in this case, Mr. Perron. We're not necessarily talking about stress management or other leadership techniques, but that's nevertheless part of the big picture. That will increasingly be integrated into all Canadian Armed Forces leadership courses. There's also professional development, that is to say a unit or base that organizes training days, and our peers, our coordinators go on site and give operational stress injury training.
In the five years that the program has been in existence, we've seen an increase in requests, in the way in which it is requested and offered. We see that people are increasingly familiar with it. Is it perfect, Mr. Perron? No, definitely not. There are still some people in the Canadian Armed Forces who know very little about operational stress injuries, but we've made a lot of progress.
Jim, in terms of competence—
9:40 a.m.
Bloc
Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Madam, before moving on to another question, we've just learned that the Royal 22nd Regiment was sent to the United States to train in waging war in Afghanistan. While they were there, were the soldiers told about post-traumatic stress and how to recognize its symptoms? I don't believe so.
9:40 a.m.
Maj Mariane LeBeau
I can't tell you whether that was done as part of that training in particular, but I know that there has been training at Valcartier. They organized peer helper training. They have a resilience program, developed by Ms. Routhier, who I believe was appointed here to prepare the soldiers who will be deployed to Afghanistan. So things are in fact happening.
In terms of the personnel in Afghanistan—
I would like to have Mr. Jamieson answer that question, because that's right down his alley.
9:40 a.m.
LCol Jim Jamieson Medical Advisor, Operational Stress Injury Social Support Advisory Committee, Department of National Defence
In general terms, there's extensive pre-deployment screening and education. It takes several weeks now, and included in that is a large portion on mental health concerns and mental health first aid. In addition, sir, as you may know, we currently deploy a mental health team with each rotation. There are always social workers, mental health nurses, and usually a psychiatrist in theatre, and now we're adding mental health clinical psychologists.
Post-deployment, the screening is very extensive, with follow-up after six months. We do everything possible to encourage the family to participate, but we cannot compel that. Through the military family resource centres, which Mr. Valley was referring to, there is considerable effort made to assist families pre-, during, and post-deployment. We can get into the details, but I don't think there's a resource problem with that part of it. I think we need to do more for families. I was hoping somebody would ask me to comment on that when Mr. Valley asked the question. There are systemic gaps for families.
Our major operational bases, such as Valcartier and certainly Petawawa and Gagetown are not located near major centres. In the United States, the family gets its medical care, while the member is in service, from the military. We don't do that here, and in a place like Petawawa, there are serious systemic gaps, even in getting a family doctor, much less any specialized care for the family or children when there are mental health concerns. Education and screening are fine, but if you haven't got the resources to plug people into to get the help they need, that's where we have a systemic gap, in my opinion.
9:45 a.m.
Bloc
9:45 a.m.
Col Donald S. Ethell
Sorry, I was listening to Colonel Jamieson there. It's sometimes difficult to understand the problems of the families that are dislocated from a major centre. It's just a fact of life. There's a great shortage of doctors, GPs, throughout the country, let alone psychiatrists and psychologists.
The second question you had was about investing more in qualified personnel versus purchasing aircraft. You said you didn't need an answer, but I'm going to give you the answer. The answer is, I can't answer the question because it's a departmental question. Allocation of resources in regard to military equipment is DND responsibility.
9:45 a.m.
Col Donald S. Ethell
Mr. Chairman, the funding can be described later on, if you wish, by Major Le Beau and Ms. Darte. They can describe what they have now and possibly what they've asked for in terms of the future.
9:45 a.m.
Medical Advisor, Operational Stress Injury Social Support Advisory Committee, Department of National Defence
Perhaps I can make a very quick comment.
Within DND for mental health services, the budget is doubling between 2005 and 2010. The number of resource people has gone up from 212 to 400-and-something. I think there's been a lot of realization that we've needed more resources, and certainly there's been a major push in that area.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thanks very much to all of you for your presentation.
As you probably are aware, a while ago there was a story in the newspaper about the children in Petawawa. Some of them are going through some fairly serious mental anguish. In the paper it mentioned that there was disagreement on who should provide the mental health care for those children on the base, the province or the federal government.
My own personal view is that because they're on a military base, it should be the military, the federal government, looking after their concerns. However, there is some debate that it should be a provincially run jurisdiction.
Who, in your view, using OSISS, should be looking after the concerns of the children in this particular instance, in Petawawa?
9:45 a.m.
Col Donald S. Ethell
You could go back to when we had many troops in Europe, and the families and so forth, when it was, from my understanding, a DND responsibility. Those days are gone.
I'd like Jim Jamieson to answer this. It's a very important point. We've talked about it, but he's taken it on personally.
9:45 a.m.
Medical Advisor, Operational Stress Injury Social Support Advisory Committee, Department of National Defence
Some of us within the department are pushing very hard to do more for families along exactly the line you're saying. As I mentioned before, it is a critical problem.
Let me use Gagetown as an example, because I know it better. We've had money for child psychiatry, child psychology, as well as for just general psychology and psychiatry. We can't find people to go to these locations. So it's partly a resource problem, partly a locale problem.
As Colonel Ethell indicated, we have in the past provided direct medical care to our families. It is a provincial responsibility, and this is the dilemma we're stuck with. I must say, though, that even in the best world, having enough clinical psychologists for children in the Pembroke-Petawawa area would be difficult.
Who should do it? Officially, the province should do it. That's the way the legislation reads.
I guess we're not allowed to express personal opinions, but I think my opinion is pretty obvious when it comes to what I think we should do—namely, a lot more.
9:50 a.m.
Col Donald S. Ethell
If I may, Mr. Stoffer, I'd like to go back to some testimony made in front of the Senate subcommittee, on November 22, by General Yaeger, the Surgeon General. When asked, “Is the challenge money?”, General Yaeger gave the following answer:
No, senator, the challenge is not money. It is simply availability of appropriately trained people who are willing to come to work for us either in uniform or as public servants or civilians under contract.
If I had a magic wand, I would wave it on mental health providers at the moment. As of today, that is our biggest challenge in hiring.
And that's what Jim Jamieson was articulating.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
Okay.
In your brief, I notice you have circles that show DND and VAC together. They're combined. But Health Canada would play a role in all of this. What role does Health Canada play in assisting OSISS and the people in that organization? Or do they play a role?
9:50 a.m.
Col Donald S. Ethell
I'm going to ask Kathy Darte to talk about Ste. Anne's and so forth.
9:50 a.m.
Program Co-Manager, Operational Stress Injury Social Support Advisory Committee, Veterans Affairs Canada
We have not been directly involved with Health Canada. The circles there show the partnership for this particular program. In this particular program, there is no eligibility requirement to come forward and access the services of OSISS. When families and children come forward to access service from our program—and we do get children coming forward on an individual basis—we try to plug them into whatever is available in their respective areas. So with families, yes, it is a challenge. We have to look, from the OSISS program, at what's available in the community, but also at what's available from DND and what is available from Veterans Affairs, because there certainly are programs there that are available.
For example, in Veterans Affairs, and also in DND, there is a 1-800 line, a counselling line. It's available 24/7. In the military it's called the Canadian Forces Member Assistance Program. In Veterans Affairs, it's called the Veterans Affairs Canada Assistance Service. Individuals can call that line at any time with any kind of problem, including psychological. There are other kinds of problems that come forward as well, but we'll focus on the psychological ones. Their costs will be covered by one department or the other, because the only question that's asked of the person who calls is, “Are you still in the military or are you out of the military?” That just directs the bill to the right department, whether it be DND or Veterans Affairs. They can receive up to eight sessions of counselling—family counselling, individual counselling, or child counselling. Hopefully through that program, the individuals will get counsellors in their locale. That is a starting point to getting them connected with individuals who are experts in their fields within their respective locales. So that's one thing that's offered.
And we do, through OSISS, make a number of referrals, or make people aware that the service is available.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
I have two quick questions for you.
A lot of reservists, of course, aren't part of military bases. They work for Canada Post, and they come home and go right back into their normal workplace. They don't have the camaraderie of a base or other military people to share their experiences with. There's an explanation in here that says if you understand it, it's easy to explain; and if you don't understand it, there is no explanation.
I thought that was pretty good. But for reservists and their families, how does this program assist them?
Also, Major Le Beau, you said there is no program anywhere else. Are you saying there's no program like this in any of our NATO countries? Do some of our NATO allies have a program similar to this? And if they do, do we coordinate or share information to look at best practices of how Holland or Australia or the States address their particular concerns as well?
