Veterans Affairs Committee on May 10th, 2007

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

This is regarding taxation levels, which is an issue that was raised earlier this morning.

It says here that the average Canadian pays 25.4% of their wage for taxation—I think you'd find some Canadians who would disagree with that figure—and in the Scandinavian countries it's 44.1%. So it's pretty clear why they're able to do some things we're not able to do.

I also wanted to just mention to you that I had the pleasure last week of being on the steps of Parliament Hill with Senator Marjorie LeBreton, who's been assigned as the minister for seniors, and Minister Solberg. We've just struck an advisory committee to address the general needs of seniors in this country, so they will probably be working hand in hand with your group. And you're working with veterans' needs. So it's a wonderful situation when you actually get the information straight from the horse's mouth.

[Dr. Norah Keating]

Yes.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Is there anything you'd like to close with, any opinions you would like to leave us with? I was quite impressed with the changes you thought would pay immediate dividends, and I happen to agree with them. Respite support for caregivers is pretty nearly essential, and job protection for those who take the time off to support seniors would be a wonderful way to go too. But is there anything else you'd like to add?

[Dr. Norah Keating]

I think those would be the main issues.

Going back to the report, I think Veterans Affairs is in a wonderful position because they can top up other services, really, to meet the needs of older veterans very well. I have long been almost a cheerleader for the department, in the sense of their ability and willingness to really provide a set of services to older Canadians.

So I'd just reiterate that I do believe that the model we're proposing is something that will benefit these older veterans, and presumably the upcoming cohorts of veterans as they age as well.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Dr. Keating, and please keep up the good work.

[Dr. Norah Keating]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much.

Now we go on to Monsieur Perron with the Bloc, for five minutes.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Chair, I only need a few seconds.

Dr. Keating, when you met with veterans of a certain age, the ones we might call traditional veterans, were you able to detect, in terms of mental health, any symptoms of post-traumatic stress because of what they experienced during the Second World War or the Korean War?

[Dr. Norah Keating]

In the research that we did for the department in rural communities, we were not focused particularly on mental health, so I can't address your question directly about PTSD.

Certainly we met with veterans, some of whom were very active and engaged and quite well, and others who were needing nursing-home-level care. So we saw a huge variety of health status and mental health status among the veterans and other older adults we talked to. I can't specifically say whether or not people we met were suffering from PTSD because we weren't really asking those questions.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

My question is to confirm what I learned this week. On Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday I attended a symposium on post-traumatic stress in Montreal. It was Veterans Affairs second National Operational Stress Injuries Symposium.

There was an American at the symposium—we know that Americans have been interested in PTSD since the Vietnam War—who said that the majority, or a good number, of ordinary veterans, if I can call them that, would have or could have experienced post-traumatic stress. However, because of their education or their pride, etc., they are apprehensive and do not want to talk about it. They prefer to talk about things other than how they feel. This is what we heard.

Is this statement true?

[Dr. Norah Keating]

I would expect that you may know more about this issue than I do. The only thing I could say is that we now have a great deal more knowledge about mental health problems than we did 50 or 60 years ago, so that many of the mental health problems of people post-Second World War likely simply were unrecognized. So I take your comments, and I know there's a tremendous amount of interest in PTSD these days, so I'm pleased to hear that there was such a conference.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Dr. Keating.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Mr. Perron, thank you.

Now we go on to Mr. Valley with the Liberal Party, for five minutes.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for being a cheerleader for the department, Doctor. I think good work has to be recognized and I think Mrs. Hinton just recognized the low tax rates in Canada as something we can all take credit for from past governments.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

They're giving me a bit of the gears here.

You have to forgive us, Doctor, for always returning to the younger veterans, but our focus is all veterans and we know your focus is gerontology.

[Dr. Norah Keating]

Yes.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

You mentioned in your opening comments about understanding what the veterans who came back from the Second World War needed, and I think your terms were that they needed education at that time and now it's moved on to health and social considerations. If we're going to serve our veterans properly in the future—and we know the ones who are coming out of the forces are much younger right now—we need to know basically what they're going to need. I know that's not your area of expertise, but it's something we need some guidance in.

You mentioned the other committee that's looking at the younger veterans. Do you think that, as they age and they get into the field that you represent, there will be the exact same things? Will it be health and social considerations? Is that going to be consistent with old age?

[Dr. Norah Keating]

This is one of the questions that gerontologists have been wrestling with for some time now, the question of whether each cohort or group of older adults is going to be the same. In some sense, I think in general, we would say yes. People do, throughout life and as they grow older, have social needs and health needs.

It also has to be known that each group of older adults is living in a different kind of social setting with different sorts of major events and economic climate. Those are the things that are extraordinarily difficult to forecast.

We know some things like adults at middle age right now are far more likely to be in the labour force, particularly women, than were women of the generation who are now over age 80. This in itself means that they have different trajectories in terms of their income, their availability to provide care for others, etc. So that's just one small example about how things may be different because of the circumstances of this next group of people who are growing older.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you.

You noted that it's difficult to forecast; it's almost as if we should have some kind of chart in front of us of a veteran at 30, a veteran at 40, a veteran at 50, and what possible services they're going to need. I don't think we have that kind of thing, and it might be something we have to consider in the future.

Thank you, Doctor.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

We now have Mr. Shipley, with the Conservative Party. Mr. Stoffer has requested that he have a chance to intervene afterwards.

Mr. Shipley.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Again, thank you, Dr. Keating. In terms of the report that's been delivered, the work that you're doing as volunteers, I think each of us sometimes slides over this, and as we mention how much we appreciate it, it doesn't always ring to the real amount of appreciation that's out there. We tend to focus on our questions, but I think each of us has tried to illustrate in some sort of language the appreciation on behalf of the veterans of what you're doing, which is incredible. I just leave that as a comment.

[Dr. Norah Keating]

Thank you.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Secondly, I want to follow back through on the question where I was going in terms of the availability of services, and I'd ask whether, in particular, there is a concern in terms of the specialists who are required and the service providers who are required.

[Dr. Norah Keating]

One of the things we found in the work we did for the department on rural Canada is that different kinds of services are more important to people, to older adults and to older veterans, in different kinds of situations. For example, if you are someone who has reasonably good health, who drives a car, and who is used to travelling some distance from a larger service centre, it may not be a huge issue to you.

We interviewed people in one community that was about a two-hour drive from a major service centre, and those who were driving and were in reasonably good health were not concerned about lack of local physicians or specialists, because they were able to get there. So it depends. For some people who are very frail and who need specialists' care, this could be a real concern.

So it's hard to generalize. It depends on the veterans and their particular needs.