Evidence of meeting #41 for Veterans Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was services.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Alexandre Roger
Norah Keating  Member and long-term care and mental health specialist, Gerontological Advisory Council

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Thank you.

In your report on page 15, where you talk about how 40% of the war service vets are receiving some VAC health benefits now, in the second paragraph you talk about how there are a number of reasons why the remaining 60% are not using these services. Then in the second bullet you talk about how they may not know about the services that are available. I think, clearly, we need to do as much as we can to make those services known to our vets, firstly.

Then there's a third bullet that says “They may not ask for service”. Are we obliged to provide the service when they don't ask for it, do you believe?

10:20 a.m.

Member and long-term care and mental health specialist, Gerontological Advisory Council

Dr. Norah Keating

That's a difficult question. There are of course some people who don't wish to have services. One of the frustrations we found among service providers in the research that we did was among those people we came to call “stoic”. You probably know them: these are people who really are quite self-contained, who don't wish to have to depend on others, and sometimes would refuse services perhaps to what we might think is their detriment.

There are ethical issues here as well that are very tricky about how much one imposes, how much one stands back and is concerned about people not doing well, that are very much practice issues that face-to-face caregivers and service delivery people have to confront fairly often. So I can't give you a definitive answer to that question.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

One of the comments that has come forward is that if someone hasn't been part of that service as a veteran and passes on, then their widow does not have access to those services. I think we need to consider how we work around that.

10:25 a.m.

Member and long-term care and mental health specialist, Gerontological Advisory Council

Dr. Norah Keating

Yes, that certainly has been one of the drawbacks to the current set of eligibility criteria and the focus specifically on the individual veteran, not on his family.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Those are my questions, Doctor. I appreciate very much your entertaining our questions today and being on the committee.

10:25 a.m.

Member and long-term care and mental health specialist, Gerontological Advisory Council

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Thank you very much.

So far we only have two other people on the list who wish to speak. Mr. Stoffer is interested in an interjection here and asking questions, then we'll deal with Monsieur Perron's request afterwards.

Unless anybody has any objections, I recognize Mr. Stoffer.

10:25 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Only one question.

For aboriginal or first nation veterans, when they age there are some cultural and obviously historical sensitivities around them that would be met. How do you see DVA in the future ascertaining peculiar circumstances with them in terms of their needs, as apart from non-aboriginal veterans?

10:25 a.m.

Member and long-term care and mental health specialist, Gerontological Advisory Council

Dr. Norah Keating

That's a very good question.

I think part of what we hope this new approach to services might take into account are cultural differences, not only community settings but cultural differences. First nations people have a particular kind of tradition. Older adults who come from different religious or ethnic backgrounds may as well.

I cannot speak specifically to how that might be done with first nations veterans. I know there's an awareness in the department about the differences. Certainly the research on aging that has been done with aboriginal people shows that they are much more likely to have high levels of chronic health problems at younger ages than non-aboriginal older adults.

10:25 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Thank you.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Thank you very much, Dr. Keating.

Monsieur Perron's interjection will be something independent of this, so what I will do now is take the opportunity on behalf of the committee to thank you very much for your presentation this morning.

10:25 a.m.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

I want to let you know that I, and I'm sure everybody here, learned a great deal. I know the time difference was touched on by one of our other members here. While 9 a.m. is a reasonable time for us, 7 a.m. is an earlier one for you. Thank you very much for accommodating us in your schedule.

10:25 a.m.

Member and long-term care and mental health specialist, Gerontological Advisory Council

Dr. Norah Keating

Thank you so much.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Bless you for your work.

Thank you.

I actually find that sometimes I learn more through the audio than I do through a visual presentation. I don't know what that implies about my learning technique.

Monsieur Perron would like to talk to us. He's been at a Sainte-Anne's PTSD event.

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

It is up to you to decide if you would like me to briefly summarize what I saw and heard on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. I will do it for your information. This symposium was very interesting. I think the problems it addressed were fascinating. There were so many information sessions offered that it was hard to choose which ones to attend.

I think I was the only one who was not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, other than the symposium organizers. More than 450 people, psychologists and psychiatrists from all over Canada, the United States and some European countries as well, met to review the current situation.

My first reaction was to notice how far behind we are in terms of research. It is not just in the area of post-traumatic stress or human psychological behaviour that our American friends are much more advanced. In terms of post-traumatic stress, we are very far behind, but fortunately there has been some good research conducted in the United States, which we can use. They have been interested in this since the Vietnam War, while we started taking an interest in it barely five years ago. That is hard to believe.

But there is hope. I brought the program from the symposium to provide you with names of experts, such as Matthew Friedman, one of America's foremost authorities on this topic. During his presentation, he referred to the findings of young psychologists from McGill University, the University of Toronto and the University of Manitoba. So there is an exchange, and our young academics are perhaps better informed than older Canadian psychologists about the experiments conducted by the Americans.

I can also say—although not with as much certainty since I did not meet enough people from these countries—that we are no more advanced or farther behind than France, Belgium, Germany, etc.

What interested me particularly, was to learn who can suffer from post-traumatic stress, and that post-traumatic stress is not restricted to our soldiers. There are about 10 or 12 types of stress that can affect some people at any time in their lives. For example, it could occur following a rape or an automobile accident in which the person witnesses the death of a best friend. These are events of the same type, but naturally, it is much more likely for them to happen on the battle field than in everyday life.

What can we do? First of all, people who are experiencing stress must be able to recognize that they are having problems and realize that they must see someone. Second, the quicker this is done, the better the chances of healing, not 100%, but I think the figure provided was 67%. Yes, I am looking at my notes, and the figure was 67%.

So I have realized the importance of increasing awareness among the young soldiers who are enlisting about this phenomenon which could occur. I also realized that there was a serious shortage of professionals in Canada and Quebec able to treat this condition.

Because of Canada's geography—we have three or four large, urban centres found within one strip of land, while the rest of the country is mainly rural—it is difficult to establish a front line for intervention. When a young soldier suffering from post-traumatic stress begins to feel like something is wrong, he or she does not need to see a specialist for an initial consultation. However, the person he or she does consult must be very familiar with that condition. If PTSD is identified, the patient could be referred to a centre such as Sainte-Anne Hospital, for example.

There is still a lot of work to be done. Most of the psychologists there said we need to find a way to establish networks to provide primary care and initial contact in Canada's more remote areas. This aspect is crucial. We are starting to see this in rural areas, but this will take some time.

As an example, Dr. Friedman said that, since the United States began their research into this area shortly after the Vietnam war, every year, more and more psychologists and psychiatrists are earning their degrees, specializing in this area. He told me an interesting fact during a one-on-one conversation. According to him, we should not be too quick to trust our statisticians, because their calculations are inaccurate. I asked him what percentage of our young soldiers return from combat suffering from various degrees of post-traumatic stress—the intensity is not always the same—and he said that, in the United States, that figure is 39%. Statistics suggest that, in Canada, the percentage is approximately 12%.

My next comment is addressed mainly to Betty. I was surprised to learn—and I would have never believed—that women are more likely to suffer from post-traumatic stress than men. The difference, in terms of percentage, is minimal. The difference is 10% compared to 8% in the general public, not in the army. I was surprised by that. I though the rate would be the same or almost the same. But no, 10% of women suffer from post-traumatic stress compared to 8% of men. What is the reason for this difference? I do not know, I am not an expert. I learned this during the last day, yesterday, but I did not really understand what they were saying.

The three days were very worthwhile. Another surprising piece of information that must be considered is that approximately 25 to 30% of young people who begin treatment leave the program prematurely. Why? No one knows. Psychologists do not know why, but between 25 and 30% of young people who begin treatment abandon it after three or four sessions. Psychologists do not know how to retain them. The success rate of treatment is 67% and the time it takes for the treatment to be successful can vary between a few months and a few years.

I asked about post-traumatic stress among traditional wartime veterans—those we know are now in their 80s—and I learned that the stress dates back so far back that it is nearly impossible for the victims to heal. We can try to make the illness less painful by encouraging them to have a more active social life and become more involved in their families, with more intergenerational contact. We can help them alleviate their problem, but healing PTSD or post-traumatic stress is nearly impossible at that age, because they do not have many years left. Their suffering could take 10, 15 or 20 years to heal.

I could go into greater detail. Furthermore, I asked for a report on all the sessions, and I could forward you that report, if you like. There were 33 sessions in three days, and most were taking place at the same time. I was able to attend about 15% of them. I missed one session that I would have liked to attend, on suicide among people suffering from post-traumatic stress. Unfortunately, I had already decided to go to another, more important session. It would have taken three or four people to attend all the sessions.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Betty Hinton Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

That's very interesting. It sounds like it would have been a wonderful session to attend to get all of that information.

When you were giving your report and mentioned the young people who were leaving, the first thing that popped into my head was perhaps there's some correlation between mental health and physical health. Quite often people who are prescribed antibiotics for some sort of physical ailment take half the prescription, and because they start to feel better they stop taking their prescription. Maybe the same sort of thing is happening on the PTSD side.

10:40 a.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

That could be.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Betty Hinton Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

You start to feel better and think, “Okay, I've had enough of this. I'm done, I'm fixed”, and away you go. So we have to find a way to encourage people to stick with the whole treatment.

10:40 a.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

They make every effort to try to maintain an inward life. A last resort could be to use a rifle and say that, if they do not come... They go. They are obligated to let them go.

Indeed, I was very surprised to learn that, of all the physical illnesses one can have before leaving, including heart, respiratory, muscle, mobility, weight, liver problems... Our society must take a closer look at PTSD, which can affect not only soldiers, but also rape victims or people who have been in an accident, for example. Society must take a closer look at this problem.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

My guess is that a number of quitters feel some sense of relief in quitting because they think they're somewhat cured. The other thing is that having dealt with some of these painful issues, and what not, they may determine after some treatment that they've had some help and don't want to deal with it any more.

10:40 a.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Those are problems, and there's the distance problem. Maybe he's tired of taking the bus for three hours each way to go to a one-hour treatment every week. I know it's tough. It's practically not doable to give the treatment at his home. But there are all kinds of reasons why 30% of the people quit before it's over.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Mr. Sweet is next, and then Mr. St. Denis.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

How much of it was focused on general PTSD sufferers in the military? Were some sessions focused strictly on the military?

10:40 a.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

The first day it was mainly general. The second day it was on the military and young vets, to give them better service. They recognize that they don't get better service because we're not equipped, we don't know that much, they live all over the place--all that stuff.

At the end of the first day we had a good case. People from Petawawa came and said, “I'm okay. I'm a brand-new person.”

By the way, I was able to talk to someone named Danielle--I don't remember her last name. She suffered from it in Bosnia and is ready to sit on one of our sessions. She's working for Veterans Affairs in Kingston. So it's a good story. It's happening, but the problem is that we may have one good story but we might be missing ten because of lack of professionals, service, and everything.

What can we do? We can try to improve as much as possible, but we won't be able to reach 100% of them.