Evidence of meeting #43 for Veterans Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was recommendations.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
We're back into a public meeting.
Just to let everybody know—though we were talking about this procedurally—we're going to deem that there was unanimous consent not to have the previous decision recorded in the public minutes. That's the way we'll have to deal with it, in terms of the technicalities.
Does anybody have problems with that?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
Okay, fair enough.
We are carrying on with the veterans independence program and health care review. We are giving suggestions to our analysts with regard to the report on post-traumatic stress disorder.
The floor is open with regard to what people want to have dealt with or to give instructions on.
Mr. Stoffer.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
First of all, I know it's always challenging to start a report. Where do you start it, and where do you get the middle and the end of it?
Among some of the concerns we've heard so far is the lack of trained psychologists—and it's not a military or a veterans problem, but a societal problem. What recommendations can we make to improve that situation, not only with financial resources but also with human resources?
In this case, I go back to the situation—and maybe I'm out of my realm when I say this—of the children of Petawawa. We heard Mr. Dallaire say that when everybody was overseas in Germany, everything fell under DND—everything. But when you're here and you're serving in Afghanistan, all of a sudden you have all of these different jurisdictions helping you: you have the province here, you have the military here, you have this here--and it's confusing. That's why we had that problem with the children in Petawawa, who were undergoing terrible mental challenges. But who's responsible for them? We had this political back and forth between the province and the federal government.
So I would like to see a recommendation saying that if there are children of a military family on a military base, then the military should be responsible. I know there are going to be discussions with the provincial government on that, but this is one recommendation I would like to see in order to simplify the process for them. Veterans and their families and their children shouldn't have to go to this department and that department to get one problem solved. If they're with the military, if they're attached to the military, it should be the military that looks after their needs, just like Dallaire said when they were in Germany.
The other concern, of course, is the PTSD. I thought of the symbol used for it, that it's a fracture, and that some fractures heal and some don't. And you heard him mention the pills he takes. Well, I have two veterans with PTSD in my riding and they take more pills than him. Again, it's to prevent them from being suicidal. Of course, what happens to people who are suicidal is that sometimes they take other people with them. That is a concern that we need to be able to deal with, by providing constant reassurance and constant assistance for them in this regard. So we need recommendations in this regard too.
How do we monitor not just Mr. Dallaire but other people and their families as they go through life? We need recommendations in these areas on how to maintain...or keep an eye on them, and especially the situation of the reservists. I think recommendations of that nature would be quite helpful.
Thank you.
Bloc
Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
I have a question for the clerk to clarify.
In its report, can the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs make recommendations that apply to other departments? For example, could it make a recommendation to the Department of National Defence, or recommend that Health Canada promote personnel's psychiatric and psychological development, and so on?
Can it make such recommendations, or do they have to be addressed only to the Department of Veterans Affairs?
The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Alexandre Roger
In a report, recommendations are made to the House of Commons. They can be of any nature and pertain to any given topic. The Committee can decide to recommend that blue shirts be worn, if it wants. The House will decide how it will deal with the recommendations. So as a committee, we can do absolutely everything we want.
Liberal
Brent St. Denis Liberal Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll try to give some thoughts here, for Michel's benefit.
On the very question just asked about making recommendations outside Veterans Affairs, I was glad to hear Alexandre's response. Even if we can't be specific, we may have some examples of where there's a lack of seamlessness. Even if we can't be specific, we can recommend that no effort be spared by DND and Veterans Affairs to look at those cracks between one department and the other, for the benefit of the soldiers who become veterans.
Maybe there's a term, one word, that describes a soldier who becomes a veteran. We've heard that a veteran is a veteran is a veteran, just as a soldier is a soldier is a soldier. But in the continuum, they are the same person, so maybe there is a word that can describe both phases of a military person's life, a word that promotes the idea that it is seamless, that their career in service and post-service is really one.
I think some formalization of a buddy system of some kind—I don't know how formal.... I think there are pieces of buddy systems, depending on whether you end up going to this hospital or to that clinic. AA has made a very successful thing of the buddy system. Obviously, it has to be voluntary, but I don't think AA would ever tell you anything but that their buddy system is the core of their success. You can have your twelve points, but without your AA partner, it seldom can work.
Do our military colleges train psychologists? I don't think they do, although I don't know that. Maybe it's something to inquire about, because there seems to be a great need.
Was it Dr. Descôteaux who raised the point that under the charter, soldiers can apply for benefits while they're in service, much like we have workers' compensation? There are pluses and minuses, pros and cons, to that system, because it was overlaid on an existing system. If somebody who loses, say, some fingers on a hand is still in the military, they get the equivalent of some kind of workers' compensation benefits. She was explaining that this caused a great burden, because they're focused on rehab as opposed to getting people into the benefits system. It's different. You're either helping somebody get a cashflow—and I'm not arguing against the need for that—versus trying to make somebody better. There was a conflict in terms of human resources and approaches, so I think it's fair to look at that duality, that inconsistency.
On the whole question of the preparation, we should somehow comment or make a recommendation on the pre-deployment. When you're going to Afghanistan or Sudan, maybe, versus working in the kitchen at Valcartier—those are all equally important jobs in the military, and I don't dispute that—there is potential for being injured in the kitchen, where you can hurt yourself physically, but the possibility of PTSD is going to be in Afghanistan. It's not likely going to be at the base. So we have to understand better the briefing part, the preparation, the pre-deployment, and how it ties into the debriefing or the post-deployment.
There's post-deployment and then there's post-career. You could be coming back from Afghanistan but still have 15 more years of service. There's that kind of decompression or debriefing, but then you're finished your career. Is there a post-career period of debriefing?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
Before we move on to Mr. Shipley, there's just one thing I want to say.
You raised a question about whether or not we train psychologists. I just want to respond by saying that I'm sure we have people in the reserves who are training as psychologists. They are probably members of the reserves, and they are therefore members of the forces in a way. I know the Americans have people who are specifically trained, either at the Naval Academy in Annapolis or somewhere closely associated with it, because of psychological warfare and stuff like that. I don't really know if Canada has a deployment like that, for whatever that's worth.
Mr. Shipley.
Conservative
Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON
All the things we've talked about here are likely. We're bringing up the discussions and the topics that we've had with our witnesses. All of those are things we've talked about. Obviously everything we've talked about has to do with families—not just the concern of when they're away, but actually of families when they're here and actually when the parent comes back. Also, there's the concern of the military in terms of the professional services we need to supply and of trying to work with just our general population, with the shortage of medical people that we have in all kinds of areas, just to meet those demands.
I don't know what direction you're looking at, Michel, but I would submit that if we could ask for a draft based on what we've heard from witnesses so far, we would each have our notes if there's not something that we see in it.
In the essence of time and actually being efficient, I'm wondering if that isn't a step to take first. We can then move on with our next project, after setting a time when Michel will have that draft report back for us to consider. We would then have some time to go over it both individually and then as a committee.
I'll just leave that for your consideration, Mr. Chairman.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
Does anybody else want to give some feedback? I'm at the end of my list now.
Mr. Perron.
Bloc
Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
The eventuality will need to be considered of this report's being voted on in the House.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
You're saying that because it's going to be voted on in the House, you're asking for a government response, is that it?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
The clerk was just explaining to me that you'll need to move a motion in the House requesting that.
Bloc
Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
If I'm not mistaken, Brent was concerned about the report on post-traumatic stress being the first report of the Veterans Independence Program and the Review of Veterans Care Needs. I'm talking about the final report that will be ready to be tabled in a few months.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
That's my understanding.
If I may, I'm going to turn to our analyst, because it just logically makes sense to me.
Is there anything you're looking for from the committee with regard to direction on this? Are there any questions you have?
Michel Rossignol Committee Researcher
Thank you.
The only issue is that at the moment I was planning to put all that information within a 20-page interim report. I just wanted to have some guidance on just what length the committee was thinking about for an interim report, in terms of the number of pages.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
I would probably tend toward shorter rather than longer. If you feel short is 20 pages, then I'm fine leaving it to the analyst.