Veterans Affairs Committee on June 14th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Good morning. Welcome to another meeting on veterans affairs.

Today we have Ray Kokkonen, national vice-president of the Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association.

Sir, as you know, we're doing a study on the veterans independence program and health care review. Generally, we allow you twenty minutes and then have questions from various people around the table.

So, sir, the floor is yours.

[Ray Kokkonen, National Vice-President, Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association]

Mr. Chairman, respected committee members, guests, as was mentioned, my name is Ray Kokkonen. I'm the national vice-president of the Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association, representing our president, Tom Hoppe, who is unavailable.

I have no written statement to place in front of you, nor do I have a prepared formal statement. However, I would like to explain a little bit about the circumstances of my being here. About 9:30 yesterday morning I was planning a salmon fishing trip in Trout Brook, New Brunswick, and I received a telephone call. So here I am.

In further explanation, I am also not a specialist in advocacy matters for veterans. I am more of a governance type, and as you've probably recognized by now, there's another component to these veterans communities, and that is comradeship. I'm also involved in that.

Needless to say, I had to do some quick reading, and to tell you the honest truth, I am not sure of how much value I will be to you this morning. However, I leave you to judge that.

I would like to point out that the Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association does support strongly the direction in which Veterans Affairs, with the advice of the GAC, is heading in terms of veterans services. I think there is a lot of good work going on, and it seems that it will continue to go on. I have the minutes of the last meeting of the GAC, and I don't want to get into this discussion of information passage. I'm not sure whether you have them yet or not; they're in draft. I recall from Mr. Allard's presentation the discussion about the minutes from the Senate committee.

Anyway, I have referred to that in my research. I've also talked with the man who is our specialist in advocacy matters. Unfortunately, today he's attending a meeting in Calgary dealing with the new Veterans Charter, because he also belongs to that group.

So that's a bit of excuse making, I suppose, but as a clear point, I represent generically a very large group of veterans with probably the broadest age spectrum of any of the veterans groups, bridging over 50 years of United Nations peacekeeping operations and other terms of peacemaking and peace support. It's a group that does not readily fit into a system that was specifically designed for aging war veterans.

I leave you with that, and that concludes the statement that I do have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much, sir.

Now we're going to go over to Mr. St. Denis, with the Liberals, for seven minutes.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here.

I'd actually like to start with your final comments, and if I misrepresent in any way your final comments, please let me know.

I took it that you thought the community you represent, the retired peacekeeping veterans, faced a whole different set of circumstances when they left the military versus those who left after World War II and Korea, the two other principal situations. And obviously the numbers were also different. The numbers we dealt with as a country, post-World War II and post-Korea, were a lot different from the numbers we face with peacekeeping veterans, because they tend to leave, I assume, on a continual basis as opposed to thousands at a time.

For example, I have a little house across the river in Hull in a little neighbourhood called Wrightville, off Sherbrooke. That whole neighbourhood was built...they were called homecoming. That's what I was told. There were hundreds of houses that were built right after World War II. They're all the same, brick houses with no basements, and they were for the military. So there were programs.

Could you just talk about it a little bit more...? Are you a peacekeeping veteran yourself?

[Ray Kokkonen]

That's correct, sir.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Maybe talk a little bit about what you faced when you left the military, and as much as you can, maybe anecdotally, the anecdotal information you have of your colleagues, your comrades, and what they faced, and what was not there, possibly, compared to what was there for Korea and World War II veterans in the context of health and the VIP because there are a lot of widows out there. There are a lot of veterans who are aging, so could you talk a little bit about that?

[Ray Kokkonen]

I think it's first necessary to understand that all of the peacekeeping veterans are in fact professional military people. And it can be argued that perhaps the only real soldiers were the ones from the war; however, of those people who did go through the war, very few of them remained in for further military service. So there's a distinct difference in the nature of the person who serves as a peacekeeper as opposed to a war veteran, and I think the same thing applies to the Korean vets and so on. Therefore, they are very much a part of the Canadian Forces, or the Canadian army and the Canadian Forces, system of care, regardless of what happened to them.

As you mentioned earlier on, it was a continuity of people leaving under the care of the Canadian army, the Canadian air force, the Royal Canadian Navy, and the Canadian Forces. Because of that, perhaps there are no distinct points to note because it has been a progressive thing.

However, from personal experience, I had no difficulty. I had no disabilities. As an artillery officer I came out of service with an H-1, which nobody can believe, so I can't even claim a hearing aid.

However, I am aware of many colleagues who now, with advancing age, are running into various difficulties. Their cases are under consideration by the appropriate offices when they submit their claim and there are various stages. Some people are disappointed. Some have their wishes fulfilled.

I think there may be an element of opportunism involved in the seeking of various pensions, and I think we all have to be aware of that as well. What the degree is, I'm not sure.

I have not seen very serious cases, personally, of peacekeepers having difficulties with the “system”. However, in conversations with people who have come from a more volatile peacekeeping, peacemaking, peace support operation, such as Bosnia, it becomes a bit more problematic. There are people who apparently have fallen off the edge at the end of their service and so on. I can't elaborate in specific detail about that, but there are cases of which I have heard.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Just last Friday I met with a constituent and his wife. He would be in his late sixties. Is it possible that he was in peacekeeping Germany in the sixties? He was in Germany—

[Ray Kokkonen]

No, sir, that was a NATO—

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

He was NATO, in Germany, pardon me. Let's say that he was a professional, in the sense that he signed up to have a career in the service. He probably faced what a lot of peacekeeping veterans face. He was in transport. When he was injured, he wanted to stay in but his medical condition did not permit him to stay in--at least that's what he was told--and it was just as difficult for him to be injured as it was to leave. He felt like he was being ripped away from his larger family. Even though he had a wife and two children, he felt the military was his larger family. For soldiers who sign up versus those who sign up for a war, say World War II, you say they're different people, typically. How much, in your view, are the health support requirements of our veterans dependent upon the fact that they are leaving a life they love? So they're injured physically, in this case, or have PTSD in another, but they are then ripped away from their family. I would think that would add to their poor health.

Do you have any experience, or could you comment on that part of it, that you are not able to continue in the military, even in some other way? He thought he could, but in his case he could not.

[Ray Kokkonen]

Clearly, the military has set standards of physical condition and injuries and disabilities. That has been tested over many, many years. If your military occupation demands a certain physical state, then if you don't meet that, you have the choice of either being transferred to another occupational area or being released. I can't put any sort of qualitative statement on that. In my opinion, the system does appear to work.

Now, it is traumatic to leave the military. After 35 years of regular force service and with 15 years in retirement now, almost every night I still dream about being in the military.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

If I could just conclude, the perversity of the situation this constituent was in was he couldn't stay, but he had a heck of a time proving that he should qualify for health benefits. In other words, he wasn't fit enough to stay, but he was too healthy for the health benefits. So I imagine a lot of our veterans face that Catch-22 or perverse situation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Your time is up.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

My time is up. I'll be happy to ask more questions later.

Thank you, Mr. Kokkonen.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, Mr. St. Denis.

Now over to Monsieur Perron with the Bloc, for seven minutes.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Good morning, sir. I apologize for—

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

First, I want to apologize for the lack of class we showed by not advising you until 9:30 yesterday morning that we would like to meet with you today. That was a bit impolite of us.

Since you didn't have a lot of time to prepare, perhaps I would like to talk to you about salmon fishing, but instead we'll talk about your association. If you need someone to go with on your next trip, I'm available.

What is the average age of members of the Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association?

[Ray Kokkonen]

I would say it ranges from about 55 to 70. It bulks out between about 60 and 65.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

So they're not necessarily suffering from the same aging problems as Second World War veterans, even if they will eventually have to deal with those issues.

[Ray Kokkonen]

Regarding my statement about the statistics, of course we have people in their 40s as well, and possibly some over 70. I did want to comment on Mr. Allard's commentary. I think it was at the beginning of the transcript from the 5th of June. I think this number changed later on, but initially it said “a frail veteran at age 65”. I am a 65-year-old veteran, but I don't feel terribly frail yet.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Police officers are taking part in some peacekeeping missions. Do they join your association at some point? They are part of a mission for nine months, after which they return home. How do the soldiers and the police officers get along?

[Ray Kokkonen]

We welcome police officers as members, and in fact at this time I am negotiating with a retired RCMP staff sergeant who lives in Halifax to hopefully get him to set up a chapter of the Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association in Halifax. He would then probably become the president of that chapter.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I want to change subjects. You know, since you came to testify regarding the bill moved by my friend from Elliot Lake, that diplomats and civilians had been added to those individuals to whom we will pay tribute on August 9. How does your association see this alliance?

[Ray Kokkonen]

Our membership is based on the government definition of veteran, and I would like to return to the idea that a veteran is a veteran is a veteran later on. But yes, in that sense, all veterans can join, but there is no provision for civilians at this time with service in operational areas, as you suggest. Civilians may be associate members; however, now that you have mentioned it, I want to take this under advisement and approach my association with that thought.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

If we decide to pay tribute to them on August 9, we need to find a place where they can park their car. It's good to pay tribute to these people, but if they go back home, it's not really worth the trouble.

You said that your association has been awarding a commemorative medal since 1997. Is this medal awarded to police officers and diplomats who have distinguished themselves during a peacekeeping mission and to civilians from non-profit organizations working to maintain peace through humanitarian efforts?