Veterans Affairs Committee on June 14th, 2007

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

--whenever you want and however you want, as is Mr. Stoffer able to search for a comment on things that people can't comment on.

Mr. Stoffer, you have another few minutes.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

For my second question, as you know various veterans organizations are having difficulty retaining membership. We have a variety of groups: the Army, Navy and Air Force Veterans in Canada Association, the Royal Canadian Legion, and the Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association.

Have there been any discussions you're aware of where maybe these groups--I know they work together on certain issues--could eventually become one organization? For instance, the National Council of Veteran Associations in Canada, the Royal Canadian Legion, the Army, Navy and Air Force Veterans in Canada Association, would all be under one umbrella. Would that even be advisable, in your view?

[Ray Kokkonen]

I think the possibility of the Legion becoming an umbrella organization is a continuation of the discussion that went on with Mr. Allard. In fact, a stated mission objective for the Legion right now is to become that organization.

I'm also a Legion member, so I have no problem. However, I think the nature of the beast, of the veteran, will exclude that possibility, because everybody seems to coalesce around their particular type of service. For instance, if any veterans organization thinks they will capture the Afghanistan vets, I'm sorry, that's not going to happen. They will form their own association, because they have had their own experiences that are unique compared to everyone else. I don't think there's any chance at all of them trying to become part of some umbrella organization. We understand that, of course.

The veterans understand that being divided decreases our strength as an overall community. However, when there is an attempt to do something like an umbrella organization, then the jealousies and the self-interest and the power plays come in. Those are not good words, but that's human nature.

So I don't know what the possibility of an umbrella organization being formed is.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, Mr. Stoffer.

Now on to Mrs. Hinton with the Conservatives, for seven minutes.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Good morning, sir. It's always a pleasure to see you. I appreciate you coming on such short notice.

As a new government we've increased the spending for new veterans by $523 million, and we've added 12,200 veterans and widows to the new VIP program. This committee is examining ways that we can increase that, and until this committee reports, there is not going to be very much forward movement.

I'm thinking in terms of your particular association. The previous government cut travel rates and treatment benefits. I hear a lot of negativity from veterans in my own area about how that's impacted them. I'd like you to comment a bit, if you would, on how that has impacted members of the peacekeepers, if it has in fact impacted them.

They cut $59 million from veterans in 1995 and another $10.7 million from veterans in 1998. We all recognize that those had some very serious impacts. What we're trying to do now is to increase the number of veterans and their widows who qualify for VIP programs and improve the health care system.

One question I'll ask is if you could personally change one aspect of the system as it is now, what would that be?

[Ray Kokkonen]

That's a very tough question. I would have to examine that at some length.

As a knee-jerk reaction, I would say there is a requirement to refine the evaluation and assessment tool. I think there is one under examination by GAC--it's a French term, SMAF--which would allow a seamless type of entry of veterans into care, or at least an evaluation of a veteran's needs. The evaluation would be needs-based rather than an overall blanket thing.

Again, that comes from a not very knowledgeable person.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

It would be needs-based versus a means test. You want to open it up more.

[Ray Kokkonen]

That statement is based on logic, not on actual knowledge.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Well, I happen to agree with you.

You've answered me as well as I could expect. I know Mr. Sweet would like an opportunity, and I'll split my time with him.

Go ahead, please, Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you.

I actually had a couple of points here that I wanted to try to galvanize a question with. You did just make a very vehement statement that nobody is going to capture the Afghan vets, yet there are a substantial number, and we've heard evidence that they feel displaced, etc. You mentioned your personal experience, and that it's traumatic being disassociated from the service. No matter how much we would hope that it wouldn't happen, it happens after an injury. There's a certain kind of therapeutic, cathartic--whatever word you want to call it--element of fellowship that happens. If you want to go back to the Band of Brothers series, there's that identity that happens among themselves.

We've had witnesses here from the OSISS program who particularly highlighted the fact that when someone who has had military service now deals with someone with an operational stress injury, the bond that comes from serving in the military, and that can only come from there, gives that added dimension of capability of really hitting somebody in the heart. All of that said, do you see any way for the organizations that exist today--the particularly big catchment would be the legions--to try to address the veterans?

We've had veterans here from Bosnia as well who felt they were displaced. Is there anything that your organization...or do you have any ideas to try to capture the hearts and minds of these folks so that they have a place to come to, so that they have a place of continued brotherhood, so that they do heal and have prosperous lives after their military service?

[Ray Kokkonen]

That is our vision, stated almost that way, and that vision includes veterans from every walk of life. As I have stated before, that's our membership definition. However, like the other organizations, we as an association recognize the need for some type of communal organization, perhaps structured in a way that doesn't take away the uniqueness, the independence, and the autonomy of the organizations. That's the only kind of an organization that would work, and I think the Legion is trying to head in that way a bit.

However, from the point of view of the peacekeeping veterans and a number of other organizations--and I don't think it's any secret--so much of the leadership of the Legion is civilian. That doesn't sit particularly well with former professional military people, regardless of what they've done, and that's a bit of a negative from the Legion approach.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

So that's a possibility of renewal.

I asked because the other thing we consistently heard from those who were testifying before the committee on this report was that if they can get to the veterans who aren't aware of services and allow them access to health promotion programs, they live out the rest of their lives much healthier and much happier. The Legion has this network of buildings; you could virtually have at least a physical health facility in each one, and it's one of the few veterans associations that does. One of the reasons I asked was obviously for the psychological, mental, and emotional health of the veteran, but also because this network can engage the whole person and really see an outcome that's going to be substantive, not only for the older veterans today but for those who will age in the future as well.

[Ray Kokkonen]

Yes, I certainly remember that from the transcript of Mr. Allard's statement, the possibility of the official Canadian Forces psychiatric centre or whatever coming under a different name, and it will be called the same thing; I think it was operational stress injury social support. That certainly makes sense. The Legion is the only organization that has that infrastructure as well.

I'll give a specific example from Miramichi, New Brunswick. Most of the Legion building has been sold because they just couldn't keep it up. I think that's happening around the country as well.

I would like to add another term here when we talk about aging veterans. I haven't seen it anywhere in writing, but I would like to propose “veterans aging with dignity”. Am I coining a new phrase here, “veterans aging with dignity”?

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Absolutely, that's what we're talking about--having a full, dignified, prosperous life after service.

[Ray Kokkonen]

I think that describes VIP in a sense.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Kokkonen was concerned when he first got here that his testimony would not be of value. I just want to say for the record that this first round has been very valuable. So thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Very kind of you, Mr. Sweet.

Now back to our friends, the Liberals.

Mr. Cullen, for five minutes.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

And you can say that with a straight face?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

A straight face and a bright smile.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Kokkonen. Being a fisherman myself, I can appreciate the sacrifice you made to come here--and being a salmon fisherman as well.

Now you haven't made the ultimate sacrifice, and maybe not even the penultimate sacrifice, but I think you've made a keen sacrifice. Of course, you made a sacrifice by serving your country in the way you did. I'm wondering if you'd be prepared to say where you did serve us, sir, as a peacekeeper, which missions.

[Ray Kokkonen]

I served in Germany with NATO and I served in the Middle East. UNEF (2) was my specific mission, but I've been to every one of the other ones that existed in the 1970s, and also to Cyprus, but not long enough to have earned the medal.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you.

I was in Cypress in 1972. Were you there around that time?

[Ray Kokkonen]

I came through in 1969.